Hahaha! This entire comments section is FULL of LOL! ;)

Ugly is only in the name. But I was expecting more.

It looks ugly, except for the back.

@monkeypop
Most accidents are caused by inattention not driving round a corner too fast. It's a condition i call discotiteeappmechatnaveeitis.
Or shit happens when people miss what's going on around them.

@E

You are lucky to live in a place with a closed track. When I've traveled out of state and got to take it to the track it was so pleasant and stress free.

Driving fast down mountain roads full of loose gravel, tree root ripples and loose gravel really keeps you on edge. Plus during the day when you cannot use headlights to detect oncoming traffic you have to slow down and be ready for anything around blind corners or the upside of hills. Not to mention wildlife.

All that said I can make a 3 hour round trip only 2 hours with the back roads... as stressful as it may be. The main highway always has some tourist going 30 in a 55 cause they are scared of the curves.

My daily driver is a cts..prior to that I've owned everything from vettes to highly modified evolutions to powerful fwd imports.

You seem to think that without aids rwd cars of this power level will crash or blow their engine or fry a clutch because they are impossible to drive. Well I am sorry but you are flat out wrong. I've been driving for 20 years and push my cars beyond the limit on a regular basis.

Bottom line is that if people cared to learn how to properly handle autos then we wouldn't need these aids and there would be less accidents without them.

As for antilock.. how many people out there have the latest merc version? Practically no one.. I have experiance with the latest systems used on todays cars.

I've seen accidents caused by antilock and also accidents caused by some idiot without antilock wacking the brakes and locking the tires. I watched a motorcycle rider get killed by a driver that freaked and locked the brakes.. had they learned how to properly brake that guy would still be alive today. In a perfect world people would get off their lazy asses and learn how to properly use the brakes so that antilock is not needed. Same with intrusive traction systems.

Antilock works well on a perfect surface..of which isn't likely on the road. I know I can out perform the antilock on my cars and that is why it is disabled. You seem to have very little real world experiance.

Lol this guy is something else. Calling me an elitist because I like manuals and think people incapable of driving them are missing the most basic skills.

I don't drive to the grocery store.. I drive 140 mile a day on secluded forest service roads in the mountains where I can have some fun and drive much faster than I could on the main highway. You think I bought one of the fastest sedans on the planet to tool around town?

You can call me an elitist all you like and say racing cars don't belong on the road all you want.. it just makes people think some grandma found this site.

Many of the things you have said mr anon are flat out wrong. No one is blowing their engine with a missed shift. Traction systems can screw up a driver trying to properly control a car. Abs is anything but perfect in any non-perfect conditions.

How much driving time do you have anon? Have u driven many different drivetrains on different surfaces?

I am talking about sunday canyon runs where you take you beloved car, go find some lonely twisty road and have some fun there while cops are not nearby

Has never crossed my mind personally. I drive in one of two ways: street driving and track driving. The two have never left their designated areas.

I understand that you want a racing car on the street. But it's a terrible idea.

I don't see the slightest problem. These 700 hp cars are probably safer and easier to drive than 300 hp cars from X years ago even with everything switched off. monkey mentioned it already I believe but it is crazy opening up an old magazine where a 1990 whatever is praised as being designed by divine beings but then in 1995 they turn around and act like it was built in a shed. The 1990 car is no longer at the forfront, but if it was easy to drive in 1990, it's probably safe to assume it would be easy to drive in 1995, 2005, or 2025.

@monkeypop
I understand that you want a racing car on the street. But it's a terrible idea. It was fine to have a civilized homologated version of racing cars with less than 500hp, but today we are talking about 700+hp super cars on the road. Those kind of power are int in the top racing series, where they constantly talk about reducing power/speed for safety reasons and there only top notch racing drivers are operating the cars.

And don't worry about purist cars. There always be cars like Noble, Atom, Lotus in which you have total control, but nobody from the general audience is giving shit about so you want be able to brag about your elitist manual only experience. General audience will always praise only "showoff cars", that pack technology and thus would be always faster and at the same time more suitable for the street.

@Monkeypop
"Interesting that I've been driving cars in that power range for a long time and never "kissed a tree", my daily driver has over 550bhp and is a manual. I suppose if you are scared of crashing and want the car to drive itself then maybe a high performance car isnt for you in the first place. High performance cars have switched to catering to wealthy people that want to show off rather than skilled drivers. Its sad. "
I am not talking about miss-shifting on the way to a grocery store (why do you need to heel-and-toe on the way there?). I am talking about sunday canyon runs where you take you beloved car, go find some lonely twisty road and have some fun there while cops are not nearby. There you can enjoy proper downshifts under braking and where you can miss-rev easily. So I guess you never do that in your daily driver, or not having enough fun doing so (fun=fast?). And was your daily driver a midship rear-biased car? Car enthusiast around the world are spinning underpowered lotuses everywhere, and you are claiming that 3 times more powerful midship cars should not have electronic safety nets for road drivers?

"I don't have to show you anything, I've experienced it myself. If you correct a slide at the same time the traction control takes over it can and will put you in the ditch.
...
In addition to sucking on any surface other than clean dry pavement ABS does leave a lot of braking force on the table for those that know how to use it. That is the point you seem to completely miss. "
Are you sure you are talking about modern ESP and ABS/Brake assist systems? I think your opinion is based on the experience you've got with the early generations of either systems. Good luck to out-brake latest Mersedes Brake Assist system on the surface with uneven traction for front and left sides.

"Tell me any objective advantage of an H-pattern in a modern overpowered supercar over modern paddle operated manual with lots of close ratio gears, with super fast shifts, proper blips (no kissing trees)."

The objective advantage is that I maintain more control over the drive train. You keep harping on about how SOME people screw up and crash or ruin the clutch thus we should just abandon cars that take skills to drive. Its obvious you and I have very differing opinions of cars and a different driving skill set. I find electronic intrusion to be a nuisance to the point of ruining my driving experience. It is what it is.

I would rather a performance car be tailored to a skilled racing driver rather than someone like Floyd Mayweather who is likely never going to drive the car outside his mansion anyway.

"but even slight mismatch of the revs on 600+hp car means not only jerkiness in ride quality but high chances of kissing a tree."

Interesting that I've been driving cars in that power range for a long time and never "kissed a tree", my daily driver has over 550bhp and is a manual. I suppose if you are scared of crashing and want the car to drive itself then maybe a high performance car isnt for you in the first place. High performance cars have switched to catering to wealthy people that want to show off rather than skilled drivers. Its sad.

"- about ABS
the only place where ABS looses to a man is on sand, packed snow, similar to above surfaces. On dry/wet tarmac good luck in outbraking modern ABS systems without spinning. And ABS was designed not to have smallest stopping distance but control of a car under heavy braking on any surface"

In addition to sucking on any surface other than clean dry pavement ABS does leave a lot of braking force on the table for those that know how to use it. That is the point you seem to completely miss.

"@monkeypop (and those who against new technologies)
-about stability systems
Please show me when any modern ESP system to provoke crashes? It kills the speed and any slides so you won't be able to maintain the drift (killing the fun, yes) but how does in cause crashes. Show me any evidence"

I don't have to show you anything, I've experienced it myself. If you correct a slide at the same time the traction control takes over it can and will put you in the ditch.

They don't simply "kill power" as you say but the new brake controlled systems shift power to attempt to right the oversteer. If you attempt to fix it yourself at the same time the computer does you are screwed and will over correct.

kissing trees

I think you've made some points, but maybe you're a bit tree obsessed. If you don't want to hit trees, it's much better to avoid driving at all.

Well, actually, have almost nothing to disagree with Anon.

But one thing... Why pro-drivers have to match to the tech that is created for non-advanced drivers? or just idiots, who are buying modern supercars to show off but nothing more. And a shame that most of todays supercars are created to get their lazy incompetent asses satisfied, leaving enthusiasts of extreme driving with a very limited choice at the market and opportunities...

However, yes, I know I have actually noone to condemn that way, as always since the humanity is existing, it mostly was and is consisted of non-qualified people or idiots... Just nowadays evolution goes further, and the tech is already elaborated to maximally avert actions of idiots.. and well, some really innocent situations...

The modern tech ruins the fun of driving for enthusiasts, that's why I'm mostly angered on it. But also, all the electronic actions are spontan for the driver, especially for pro, who tries to control all the process himself. In conclusion, that can leave some objectionable results...

I'm against it. I'd better control the action myself than rely on some damned electronics... Of course, I'm not Randy Pobst, but prefer operating the car maximally myself, getting additionaly an adrenalin.

Just a perfect video for you monkeypop regarding ESP
.youtube.com/watch?v=I86mQZJWabU

--with H-pattern( read manual clutch) you have far more chances to "kill" your clutch (check corresponding stories about old italian supercars), overrev the engine, you will have worse fuel efficiency
--from manufacture prospective with paddles you can put 'robot' to operate the transmission when there is a need to do so, means you can have "eco" mode, expand the audience of your car for people who just learning to drive high powered car, preserve engine from abusing, etc. All keeping proper "manual" efficiency and performance in only one gearbox.

Tell me any objective advantage of an H-pattern in a modern overpowered supercar over modern paddle operated manual with lots of close ratio gears, with super fast shifts, proper blips (no kissing trees). Now, with free left foot you can do left-foot braking more easily, which in my book is a lot more fun and area where driving skills properly shows.

Now to be related to this page. Personally, I love those gated shifters in old Ferraries, but Ferrari suppose to build road cars as a mirror of their racing cars, and there are no H-pattern in racing where Ferrari participates. LaFerrari is the flagship so suppose to have F1 roots, so presence of paddles here is a must.