Ferrari 458 Italia vs Porsche 911 GT3 RS

you are contraddicting yourself, when later on you specify what the
Ferrari Delphi Magneride is. the scuderia or the superleggera, although they share the r-compound tyres with the porsche gt-x series , they do not have the adjustable suspension package, hence they are not as track focused as the porsches

Absolutely not. Scuderia or Superleggera are track oriented version of F430 and Gallardo and are alternative choice for Porsche customer of GT2 and GT3. The fact that GT2 or GT3 have adjustable suspensions give them better versatility but doesn\'t mean they are not comparable to Scuderia or Superleggera. They are more specialistic into the category of track oriented sport GT.

@luque: All these cars have the SAME Mission profile (almost 10% track, 90% road) when a GT2-GT3 (or a Scuderia or Superleggera) have 60% -40% exactly as their fitted DOT legal track tires.

you are contraddicting yourself, when later on you specify what the
Ferrari Delphi Magneride is. the scuderia or the superleggera, although they share the r-compound tyres with the porsche gt-x series , they do not have the adjustable suspension package, hence they are not as track focused as the porsches.

@Georg,
Infact there is an error also in the written test of paper article.

Here the pictures of front tires of 458 with K1 index

Here some PS2 price list on internet
http://www.1010tires.com/tire.asp?tirebrand=michelin&tiremodel=Pilot+Sport+PS2
http://www.ityre.com/en/tyres/catalog/michelin/model/1992/

235/35 ZR20 and 295/35ZR20 have K1 index.
Sometimes also Germans mistake

@luque

the same mistake is in the print media too... in the writen text they claim K2 in the datasheet they claim K1...

@Georg
OMG, it\'s a mistake of sport auto website. See Reifenmarke daten at the end of the website page, it refers to K1 again. The front 235/35 and rear 295/35 ZR 20 tires are only available with K1 index. K2 is reserved to successive homologations for other size (es 245/40 -285/40 ZR19) for California. Georg, I have a pre-series 458 for 4 months in my plant with PS2 fitted ON.

@Luque

I don´t need to scann it they have it online..

http://www.sportauto-online.de/supertest/ferrari-458-italia-im-test-auf-der-nordschleife-forza-italia-1913091.html

• und mit konventionellen Mitteln leicht zu kompensieren: Mit gefühlvoll eingeleitetem Power-Oversteering lässt sich eine im Eingangsbereich oder im Scheitelpunkt der Kurve leicht verbogene Ideallinie professionell gerade biegen. Das ist allerdings nur deshalb praktikabel, weil der Ferrari 458 Italia die vormals gefürchteten, weil abrupten Übergänge von der Haft- in die Gleitreibung zu entschärfen versteht. Daraus zu schließen, die Traktion beziehungsweise die an der Hinterachse anliegende Seitenführung sei reduziert, wäre freilich vermessen. Mit den im Test je 295 Millimeter breiten Michelin Pilot Sport wirkt die Hinterachse in der vorgegebenen Spur wie festgenagelt. Wie der \"K2\"-Zusatz in der Typenbezeichnung der Michelin Pilot Sport beweist, handelt es sich bei diesen Reifen um eine besondere, in diesem Fall auf den Testkandidaten Ferrari 458 Italia speziell zugeschnittene Variante. Unabhängig davon darf man gespannt sein

OE [Vehicle Manufacturer] Sidewall Marking: * = BMW, C1 = Dodge, K1 & K2 = Ferrari, MO & MO1= Mercedes-Benz, N0, N1, N2,N3 & N4 = Porsche, AO & R01 = Audi, TPC= Cadillac and Chevrolet

@Woody
When I wrote about adjustable suspension I did not refer to active shock absorbers as Porsche PASM or Ferrari Delphi Magneride. These system change only shock absorber rebound or extension curve setting.
GT2-GT3 RS have complete track suspension suite permitting to change Camber / Castor / king pin angles and ride height (so the rake angle, inclination of the car) in few minutes in a normal garage, plus an adjustable wing.
Let me do a simple example. I buyed a 2001 Lotus Elise 111s Mk1 for track days. In 2004 I decided to upgrade the car assembling the Lotus Motorsport suspension kit (the same of Exige Mk1). I lowered the car of about 20 mm at the front and 15 mm at the rear and used Lotus motorsport manual to made angle changes (depending from track condition and temperature).
Well, at Misano track (Moto GP official track) I lowered my best lap by 6 seconds respect the year before when I run with standard suspension (and old tires).
I don’t know if Porsche GT2-GT3 press car are in exactly in stock configuration (I mean in end of production line configuration) when tested.
What I mean is that, with a more focused suspension regulation, a Porsche 997 GT3 RS will lap faster than a 458 in every track of this comparison.
Get it ?

@Georg
It’s not possible. 458 PS2 wheel measures were first homologations for Michelin’s Ferrari specific tires. So the index 1. K2 was reserved for following homologations.

Up the scan of 458 super test main data. Clearly is reported K1. It’s clearly reported also in pag.20 for the maximum ‘G’ and in all magazine test regarding a 458 (see also Autobild).
What has company size with car compare to do? WITH CAR COST my Friend. Material, assembling method, FIXED COST (each car has its part of annual total employee cost charged on its price). Depreciation cost (tooling amortization) and so on.
In fact Nissan, that sells over 3,300.000 cars in the world, offer al GT-R at 85Keuro that have the same performance of a 911 Turbo that cost 150K without option, (Sport auto tested a 172 K version).
Comparing car about cost, as you said, have no sense. Are you german ? How about the house price in the center of Munich in comparison with the rest of Germany ? You pay much more for squared meter only because You are in Munich. Demand vs availability fix also market cost.
So if a follow your mind I cannot compare a 458 To a 911 turbo, neither a Gallardo or a GTR (AWD), neither a ZR-1 (cost less), neither a Lexus LFA (cost much more). All these cars have the SAME Mission profile (almost 10% track, 90% road) when a GT2-GT3 (or a Scuderia or Superleggera) have 60% -40% exactly as their fitted DOT legal track tires.

Porsche builds cheaper cars than Ferrari. The price discussion is however pointless. At least depreciation & appreciation would have to be considered, meaning that a Boxster is finally more expensive than a Ferrari Enzo...

Suggesting that the GT2 RS (turbo charged, not eligible for GT2 homologation, dot legal track tires, no air condition as tested!) - rather than the GT3 RS (naturally aspirated, GT2 homologated, dot legal track tires) - should be the direct opponent of the Ferrari 458 (naturally aspirated, GT2 homologated) appears eccentric!

@Luque+Georg: i would say the 458 is somewher between the GT3 (RS) and GT2 RS since it DOES have adjustable suspension (and Manettino) but considerable more power than the GT3 RS and less power and especially torque than the GT2RS. The reason its worth the high price is that it can be comfortable and easy to drive bettr than either yet its extremely capable on the track...

@luque

Mit den im Test je 295 Millimeter breiten Michelin Pilot Sport wirkt die Hinterachse in der vorgegebenen Spur wie festgenagelt. Wie der "K2"-Zusatz in der Typenbezeichnung der Michelin Pilot Sport beweist, handelt es sich bei diesen Reifen um eine besondere, in diesem Fall auf den Testkandidaten Ferrari 458 Italia speziell zugeschnittene Variante.

from sportauto 458 supertest

what has company size with car compare to do?
No one cares if Nissan has 10 time more employees and sells 20time more cars if they compare the GT-R to the 997 Turbo

BTW
I do not compare Porsche with Ferrari, I only jumped in the discussion ... if compare two cars compare them on equal level... means price or perfromance or if it fit in both ...

The Porsche Turbo is the completely wrong car to compare it to the 458...
1. it is much cheaper
2. it is AWD

the price different between a 997 Turbo and the 458 sportauto tested was whooping 90,000Euro. You could buy a Porsche 997 turbo and a Panamera and do a longe holiday with your family for the price of the sportauto tested 458..

@Georg
The K1 (not K2) michelin PS2 fitted on 458 are high performance summer tires, the N1 (not N2) Pilot sport cup fitted on GT3RS are dot legal track tires. I like the way you choose Porsche competitors. A 458 italia could be only compared to 911 Turbo (both are sport GT car) but the 911 can not keep up so you need to pass to stripped and track focused 911 versions ?. GT2 and GT3 have adjustable suspensions for wheel angle and ride height, tell me how they could be compared to a 458 ?
More, your remark about cost is ridiculous. Ferrari has 3000 employees, Porsche 12.000 (four time more). Porsche prouction is about 100K cars, more than twelve time than Ferrari. It means Ferrari have major fixed cost you pay on price car.Plus due to limited production and exclusivity, Ferrari have highier price and better residual value than Porsche.
Yu don\'t need to be Nobel laureates in Economics to understood this concepts.

@F355
both cars tested by sportauto were fitted with Michelin Pilot Sport tires.. the Ferrari with K2 design specially for the 458 the GT2 RS with N2 specially for Porsche designed...

Who cares about racing we compare street production cars not race cars...

458 is without a question a GT2 RS oppenment not a GT3 RS ... both cost much much more than the GT3 RS and are much closer from the perfromance.

@Georg

I guess we try to look behind the numbers as hard as we can but unfortunately direct high profile car comparisons on track remain rare - as opposed to the motorbike world.

Auto Motor & Sport magazine from Stuttgart e.g. mentioned in their 458 vs GT2 RS etc comparison that the Porsche's sports tires were not really suitable for daily use.

You will certainly agree that the tires of 997 GT3 RS and GT2 RS are designed more specifically for dry track purpose (than the 458's) - and that a worse performance in cold and/or wet conditions is exactly the expected trade-off.
The lap times just confirm this.

The times on the SportAuto wet handling circuit are not easy to interpret, I agree. Obviously temperature plays an important role. In general the performance seems to drift over time too (fading again after an improvement around 2006/2007).
Then don't forget that Sport Auto is based in Stuttgart and that Horst von Saurma drives Porsche at least 100 times more often than Ferrari.

Taking into account all we know I guess it's fair to state that:
458 beats GT3 RS (2010) on dry track (not by much)
458 beats GT3 RS (2010) on wet track
GT2 RS beats 458 on dry track
458 beats GT2 RS on wet track
The GT2 RS is however not eligible for GT2 racing and therefore no direct competitor of 458 and GT3 RS.

@F355

again you do not look behind numbers...

the GT2 RS bad wet handling time was a result of very cold test day were the tires never reached working temperature.. exactly the same happend to the Audi R8 GT which was with exactly the same tires than the standart V10 helpless slower... same happend to the Ferrari F430 were the basic car perfromed very poor but the F430Scuderia did very well...
To see the true wet handling perfromance just look at the GT2 which perfromed slightly better than the F430 Scuderia and much better than the 458...

Funny is that Autocar´s Steve Sutcliffe wrote this article today
\"How much use is 562hp in the wet?Answer; not much if it comes in the form of a Ferrari 458 Italia.\"

http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/anythinggoes/archive/2011/01/06/how-much-use-is-562bhp-in-the-wet.aspx

No doubt Porsche builds cheaper cars than Ferrari.

0.6% is not much but it means the comfortably set up 458 laps a dry track faster than the GT3 RS with tires more focused on dry track.
The difference of 3.2% on wet track confirms the supremacy of the Ferrari.

The GT2 RS might have a similar price tag but does not belong to the same category since with the turbos it is not eligible for homologation for racing in GT2 class - in contrast to 458 and GT3 RS.
Anyway the comparison between 458 and GT2 RS (without air condition!) shows differences originating mostly from the different purpose of the tires:
GT2 RS 2.0% faster on dry track (average of 3 tracks)
458 5.4% faster on wet track (SportAuto wet)

yea a little bit faster but then we could talk about ferrari going on fire i will rather have the porsche

@F355

you realy think 0.6% is a worth to talk about different?
How about 0.6% better track performance for a huge amount of more money..

Porsche GT3RS
base price
148,800Euro
price as tested by sportauto
166,202Euro

Ferrari 458
base price
194,000Euro
price as tested by sportauto
243,183Euro

for that money you get
Porsche GT2 RS
base price
237,578Euro
price as tested by sportauto
237,578Euro

means the tested Porsche GT2 RS was cheaper than the 458...so much that you can buy a year ticket for the Ring, the fuel for it and a set of tires... and you get a more powerfull and faster track car..

http://www.fastestlaps.com/comparisons/meh4mmu9onfl

Ferrari 458 Italia (2009) is faster on track than porsche 997 GT3 RS (facelift 2010):
by 0.6% on dry track (average of the eight tracks listed now)
by 3.2% on wet track (SportAuto wet handling test)

it is impossible gt3 rs is better on the track porsche is lighter and more playfull not only than ferrari