Ferrari F430 vs Audi R8 V10 5.2 FSI

these numbers are physics.

I know where the grip estimation and drag came from. What about the the lap times? Did you write a code to simulate a car running around a track?

@E, these numbers are physics.

Audi made the R8 GT as a limited edition model to make the R8 even more appealing in general. Also they made a ton of money off each R8 GT they sold. As much as I love the R8, I can't even argue it is a good performance value, but again, it isn't just about performance.

Most of those numbers seem pulled from thin air. You also didn't mention that downforce increases braking performance and allows a car to accelerate out of a corner earlier by keeping wheel spin in check. Gearing adjustments can reduce the impact of drag on top speed. 50% downforce increase? 100% is easily do able at those levels, and it can be taken well beyond. A front splitter imposes about zero drag, diffusers (which can be placed front and rear) also do not contribute very much to drag. The wings and dive planes do but it's not difficult to make them adjustable to perform for a certain track. Cup tires have no issue dealing with the ACR's downforce.

A bit more downforce doesn't help much.
458 / MP4-12C produce a claimed 205 / 180 kg downforce @ 240 km/h, which corresponds to 90 / 80 kg @ 160 km/h or 35 / 30 kg @ 100 km/h.
With the cars' weight around 1500 kg an increase of the downforce by 50% would improve the cornering speed by 1.5% @ 160 km/h and by 0.5% @ 100 km/h.
On a typical track which features also slower corners and especially straights 50% more downforce would reduce the lap time of these cars only by about 0.5% or 0.3 s per minute.
On the other hand - assuming an efficiency of 5 for the additional downforce - drag would increase by about 10% and top speed cut by about 10 km/h.
Then a stiffer suspension and tires with a higher load index would be required for the higher loads at high speed (additional 190 / 170 kg @ 330 km/h).
These negative effects can be reduced through active aerodynamics limiting the downforce at high speed. Since the balance needs to be maintained, active devices are needed at the rear but also at the front (e.g. underfloor) of the car, which adds weight.
40 kg cost about 0.5% lap time...

My perception is the opposite.

This is a problem. If segments are subjective, we can't really debate them with meaning.

You can also postulate that the manufacturers don’t care about the track performance of their cars relative to the competitors'.

Again, my argument is that they don't have to. Not that they never care. Do you really think the R8 GT is all Audi could muster? Look at the rear wing and front dive planes. A high school student could figure out a way to get more downforce. Audi was obviously not trying to break track records. If they wanted to, they could have probably planned a R8 version using the Aventador engine.

You can postulate that Viper ACR, Gumpert Apollo and 458 belong to the same car segment rather than 458, MP4-12C, Gallardo and R8 GT.
My perception is the opposite.

You can also postulate that the manufacturers don’t care about the track performance of their cars relative to the competitors'.
Press releases and factory claims of lap times suggest something else...

Regarding adjustable suspension:
The spring stiffness cannot be adjusted really, only dampers, possibly anti-roll bars and ride height (with coil spring double wishbone suspensions the effective stiffness is slightly decreased by lowering the car due to the increased angle of the spring and the therefore smaller resulting spring deflection for a given wheel travel).

the segment we are talking about is mid engined sportscars around 200 k€, which can be used as daily drivers, like 458, MP4-12C, Gallardo, R8 GT.

Why couldn't the segment also be performance oriented coupes? "mid engined sports car daily drivers" isn't an official segment. There really aren't any official segments. And if segments can be so specific, why can't the Audi be in the AWD mid engine segment?

And on price, I don't know about Europe, but in the US the most expensive Audi starts 35,000 (about 20%) below the Ferrari 458. Add options and the gap can approach 100,000.

Gumpert or Viper ACR have a much stiffer suspension and are hardly able to clear a speed bump or parking ramp.

They have adjustable suspension which can be made softer or harder, higher or lower. And it's not like they'll kill you if you drive them on the road. And surely, the 458 should be able to at least keep up with the ACR, given that it's so advanced [and car makers make cars as fast as possible?] and also has downforce, adjustable suspension (that is computer controlled rather than set by the driver) and other driving assists.

@E, the segment we are talking about is mid engined sportscars around 200 k€, which can be used as daily drivers, like 458, MP4-12C, Gallardo, R8 GT.
Gumpert or Viper ACR have a much stiffer suspension and are hardly able to clear a speed bump or parking ramp. They are clearly track focused cars with pronounced deficiencies on ordinary roads and in wet conditions.

Gumpert and ACR not really the same segment...

Why does your saying that make it so? The ACR even has the full interior of the standard car.

At any rate they are faster than Ferrari, so Ferrari must be behind them in technology right?

@E Gumpert and ACR not really the same segment...
Nor any road car with GT3 aerodynamics. Such downforce levels require a much stiffer suspension which leads to critical behaviour on normal roads and in the wet.

"Audi has build the R8 GT because they want experience with new lightweight materials and use in mass production ... the R8 GT was not build to beat any record or other car..
They build it mainly the test new combination materials of carbon plastic carbon aluminium combinations.
Doing first steps in a limited edition highly expansive model is smarter than starting with such technology in the A1 class "

Seriously?? You really think they have built a car to gain experience with lighweight materials??

When factories "gain experience" with sth, buyers are not around to witness it. ;-)

@F355
Audi has build the R8 GT because they want experience with new lightweight materials and use in mass production ... the R8 GT was not build to beat any record or other car..
They build it mainly the test new combination materials of carbon plastic carbon aluminium combinations.
Doing first steps in a limited edition highly expansive model is smarter than starting with such technology in the A1 class

@E True.

not willing to allow it to perform as well as the competitors in the segment

Once again, that's not it. Audi does not need to make the car perform as well as some other car. If Audi wanted to destroy every Ferrari available, they would just throw the R8 GT3 body on a road car. They did not do that because they did not make it a priority to be so fast.

I don't understand why you don't get it. Even if you're being Ferrari biased, according to what you say, Ferrari is doing a poor job since it isn't making cars to compete with the ACR or Gumpert Apollo, and then it has hugely expensive cars that can barely win against a Corvette or GT-R, if they can win at all.

...sure, Audi builds a 193 k€ semislick spoiler version of the R8 but is simply not willing to allow it to perform as well as the competitors in the segment...

the higher performance goals in a segment is the one I'd call advanced.

But why would that be the case when there is no reason for manufacturers to go all out as far as performance goes? You can't really think that the R8 is as fast as it could be.

There's no misunderstanding.
The manufacturer which sets - and more importantly reaches - the higher performance goals in a segment is the one I'd call advanced.
The R8 GT base price is 193 k€ (in Germany) - exactly on 458 level.
The F430 vs R8 V10 comparison is less meaningful since the two cars do not belong to the same time segment - 2004 vs 2009!

F430 againts Gallardo,

R8 GT vs... 911 GT2??

The R8 is not in the same class/price segment as the F430, nor the R8 GT was supposed to beat it or the 458, it is just a limited edition, that's why VAG let it overlap with the base LP560-4.

Try again F355. Audi modified the R8 to meet some performance goal. Since the car was released, it seems they succeeded.

Notice how there is no mention of a competitor's car as a performance benchmark. There does not have to be, which seems to be the root of your misunderstanding.