BMW 1 Series M Coupe lap time at Top Gear Track

@fastestlaps. Sure thing.

What's your opinion on handling and whether it's subjective or not?

Just curious.

@Apathy Excuse me, would you, please pack more text in single post rather than flood many separate comments in succession?

"edit" feature is very handy for this.

And perhaps you should read this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/10q3/the_best-handling_car_in_america_for_less_than_100_000-comparison_tests

Clarkson, as well as the group of editors that came together for this article all seem to think handling has subjective qualities outside of the objective values of skid pads and the such.

But what do they know? Surely you know better than them.

Just watch this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2053328027664524544#

Two racing drivers and Clarkson can't entirely agree on which car has the best handling. They have to compromise.

I guess it's not that much of a fact or they would have all come to the same conclusion. Oh well.

Oh , and thanks for all your opinions on my opinions.
I don't know what I'd do without them.

It is a strange opinion really. Handling being objective... Very strange indeed.

Every article I've ever read about handling addresses the fact that there are both objective and subjective attributes about handling.

Your comment about beauty is quite interesting indeed. I guess you know more about beauty than Shakespeare, Lyly, and about 1000 other poets. Hahahahaha

Jeremy Clarkson also said that how someone thinks a car handles is subjective.

I don't care when someone says a BMW is great, because they are great. On the other hand, it is annoying when someone makes a generalization that BMW M cars are better than everything made by two other manufacturers. It's false anyway, no BMW holds a candle to an R8 GT.

Handling is a subjective quality. You can disagree with it all you want, but it doesn't make it any less accurate.

I'm fairly certain that only you think handling is objective.
Ok Tension, just how do you go about obtaining this "objective" quality? Skid pad, cornering speed, slalom? TO be objective, there has to be a repeatable methodology, do you follow? Or maybe you just drive the car and say: "Oh, this car has good/bad handling." Why? Because I said so. FACT!
You should really work on your "facts." lol

Every time someone tests a car's handling they obtain the objective facts (slalom, skid pad, etc) and then several editors give their individual OPINIONS on how they think the car feels. What is so hard to understand?

Faster than the M3 on the tgt but I'd rather own an M3 than a matchbox car.

Ergo, the way a car feels and handles is personal opinion and subjective.

You see, you are wrong.

How a car handles is very very objective cathegory, meaning, car can handle good or bad. Fact.

That's partially why there are three presenters, so you can see differing views on the same and comparable cars.

But they always agree about facts. Its their personal affinities that are different.

I have the utmost respect for Clarkson, but I also realize that his comments are far from the final word.

Of course, he just says which car is better, and its your personal choice wether you decide to listen to him or youre gonna go buy second car because you like it more.

For example, he says Italia is better than GT3 RS, and it is, but I would rather drive and own a Porsche. Simple.

Malicious? Really? Taking it kind of personally, no? lol.

Im taking it personally? lol

Im not the one who jumps out of the bush screaming every time someone says something good about BMW, lol.

Yeah, how silly is it of me to value my opinion more than that of someone else?

And you should. But that doesnt mean anyone else should value your opinion more than Clarkson's.

I don't care what Clarkson thinks about the car.

And I, on the other hand, dont care how much, or do you care about Clarkson's opinion about the car.

How a car feels should be determined by each person individually.

Yes, and those who know about cars will reach the same conclusions as Jeremy did, because he is one of them, one of those who knows about cars.

But you have fun soaking up everything he says as some infallible truth without reaching your own conclusions.

My conclusions about facts coincide with those of his, at least so far they did, and that doesnt have anything to do with the fact that we dont like the same cars. For example. He dies for Ferraris, I hate them. But, we do agree that most of them in last decade were outstanding cars. He hates Porsches, I love em! But he doesnt run away from the fact that theyre fantastic.

For **** sake, he owns an AMG and says M cars are better! What more do you want?!

There, you see his objectiveness, he has AMG, because he likes it more, but he admits Ms are better. Because they they really are better.

And that was all I was saying about the matter.

Clarkson has an opinion on how the car feels and I will base my own opinion on how the car feels after I drive it.

Ergo, the way a car feels and handles is personal opinion and subjective.

It is not an objective fact.

And BTW Tension, Clarkson himself said something along those same lines when he compared the way cars handle in one of his earlier movies.

"I'm sure he's driven more cars than I have, but that doesn't mean I should adopt what he says immediately without personal examination."

That's pretty obvious to most people.

I have the utmost respect for Clarkson, but I also realize that his comments are far from the final word.

That's partially why there are three presenters, so you can see differing views on the same and comparable cars.

I'm sure he's driven more cars than I have, but that doesn't mean I should adopt what he says immediately without personal examination.

Yeah, how silly is it of me to value my opinion more than that of someone else?

I don't care what Clarkson thinks about the car. How a car feels should be determined by each person individually. But you have fun soaking up everything he says as some infallible truth without reaching your own conclusions.

Jeremy's comment was extremely broad and not very well thought out if you think about it. I don't care how experienced you are, generalizations like the one he made are very foolish.

Malicious? Really? Taking it kind of personally, no? lol.

The problem with anything that Jeremy says is that he is only saying it for entertainment.

This is not true.

In fact, everything he says is truth wrapped in jokes, and that truth part of the jokes makes them so good.

Also, like some car enthusiasts, many of his his opinions on cars are very jaded. His dislike of all 911's until the most recent ones is a perfect example.

Yes, he always hated it, but he never said its bad or slow or lousy build or undeserving of its glory.

I take everything the man says with a grain of salt, as he frequently changes his mind and he is an entertainer first and foremost.

Do you even release how long Jeremy is into cars and what hes driven?

To say that he is firstly an entertainer is both ignorant and malicious.

I don't doubt that the 1M feels very good to drive. I will base my final conclusions on the matter after I get behind the wheel and not on what someone else said.

Well, until youre on a car show this big, thatll just have to stay in your 'my opinion' folder, for which not alot people will care. :)

The problem with anything that Jeremy says is that he is often only saying it for entertainment.

Also, like some car enthusiasts, many of his his opinions on cars are very jaded. His dislike of all 911's until the most recent ones is a perfect example.

I take everything the man says with a grain of salt, as he frequently changes his mind and he is an entertainer first and foremost.

I don't doubt that the 1M feels very good to drive. I will base my final conclusions on the matter after I get behind the wheel and not on what someone else said.

You can't exactly equate how someone feels about a car as a fact. It's a fact that applies only to them and their opinion.

True. That said, you do release that Jeremy said 'car feels so and so', not 'I feel about this car this n that'?

The way a car feels is entirely subjective and depends on an individual's impressions of said car.

This statement is almost as wrong as that old beauty is in the eye of the beholder BS, lol.

You see, when someone who saw many beautifull women in their life tells me that some girl I never saw myself is something special, I will be inclined to believe him.

However, if someone gets all jigly and jumpy and skittish about Paris Hilton, it would indicate a pimpled redneck teen who doesnt 'drive' very much, if you see what I mean.

The point is, if Jeremy says M cars are better than the other two, that means that I would rather have sex with one of them M cars than with the Hilton sisters.

LOL.

You can't exactly equate how someone feels about a car as a fact. It's a fact that applies only to them and their opinion.

The way a car feels is entirely subjective and depends on an individual's impressions of said car.