Ferrari's manipulation with downforce figures 70

Cover for Ferrari's manipulation with downforce figures

Recently I wanted to do a comparison of aerodynamic efficiency (Cl/Cd) of different supercars since the 1990s. Because Sport Auto provided wind tunnel data in their supertests, it shouldn't have been difficult. However, there was a problem: 458 Speciale wasn't present. 458 Italia, 488 GTB, 488 Pista, but not Speciale.

Well, I decided to check other sources of data. And it turned out that Ferrari mentioned that 458 Speciale had aerodynamic efficiency around -1.5 (-0.53 Cl and 0.35 Cd). In 2013! I thought this was weird because only in the early 2020s we got such efficiency in supercars like GT3 RS (992), but Ferraris are exceptional because they don't use large rear spoilers!

Even more, if I assumed that their numbers are true, it would mean that aerodynamic efficiency of Ferraris didn't change a lot for, like, a decade (for 296 GTB it'd be around -1.8). At the same time a lot of manufacturers went all the way to increase their downforce for a whole decade!

But okay, that could happen. Maybe Ferrari had an aerodynamic breakthrough back in a day, and they just didn't feel the need to increase that downforce a lot. But Sport auto test drivers, which drove Ferraris on Nurburgring and Hockenheim, said in the articles that downforce figures of 200 kg at 200 km/h didn't feel like it, the car were not so grippy.

And then I decided to delve into the matters. The thing is, a lot of manufacturers, Ferrari included, do not like to present exact downforce figures. They say something like "we increased the downforce 20% compared to the previous model". But thanks to some tests, especially Sport Auto, it is possible to check those statements. And, interestingly, I found out that Ferrari mentioned huge downforce for F430 and 599 GTB already! If to convert those values, it'd be 124.4 kg at 200 kmh for F430, 70 kg for 599 GTB and 140 kg for 458 Italia. However, Sport auto managed to measure all three of these cars in a wind tunnel and got very different figures, -17, -65, and -1 kg respectively. It meant that these cars generated more lift than downforce.

And here comes the most interesting part. Difference between downforce figures of Ferrari and Sport Auto for F430 equals to 141 kg, as well as for 458 Italia, and 135 kg for 599 GTB. It was nearly the same, as well as drag coefficients for these cars! And I came up with an assumption that Ferrari, in their car descriptions, uses only downforce without subtracting the lift, like it is usually done on downforce measurement tests. But this should also mean that their figures for 458 Speciale (-0.53 Cl and 0.35 Cd) are also misleading! And if we assume that this assumption is right, current Ferraris like 296 GTB generate not 240 kg of downforce at 200 kmh but rather around 100 kg, which is not really an exceptional amount, rather mediocre for these days.

P.S. Sorry that this post might seem boring to some of you. Yeah, I know that downforce figures became much more of a marketing selling point by now than a real performance metric. Just wanted to share my little "investigation" because I also thought that Ferrari had really great aerodynamically efficient cars even without large spoilers, but it turns out Lamborghinis are already better in this field...

6m ago by geoffTheGOAT +15
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cosimo  2w ago

the latest will always be the greatest, only at maranello

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remember folks, you're not allowed to question their chief designer, because once they say it's the most advanced and sophisticated car with the highest downforce today, you better believe it.

downforce on the luce is invisible when it's turned off.

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Dev2005  4w ago

Someone should do a similar analysis on the new models too, although ex mercedes f1 engineer did make a detailed analysis on the f80, and he said the numbers are pretty reasonable, i would like to now about other models (849, 296 speciale) ferrari claims over 400kg of downforce for these, which i personally i found exaggerated, considering they don't possess a big wing, or a massive s-duct

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AJP  1m ago

This seems like a poor and maybe even biased investigation.

The tunnel used in sport auto had no moving ground or wheels.

The fact that you don't know about that says much.

And comments like Ferrari aero knowledge isn't advanced can only be a joke. They've been competing and have had their own advanced wind tunnels for decades.

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Josephine  4m ago

He used to waste his time all day doing nothing.

After I told him about online work, he became busy like a boss.

Now $40,000 is rolling in… COPY AND OPEN THIS SITE:➤big.moneybaar.com

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uhnonimoose  4m ago

Have you ever driven a 458 at 120 mph on the highway? It feels like a normal car at 60 mph, very calm and glued to the road. I don't entirely believe the numbers in the original post, and some other posts here give reason (@Luque re no moving ground nor wheels).

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jeremyclarkson1  5m ago

I’m so glad people are talking about this now!

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Murmur  5m ago

So, a Ferrari 458 could be about as fast on a track as a Porsche 911 GT2 RS 997 despite having less power, more weight, and way less downforce?

WOW! That's a super-win for Ferrari!

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Anonymous  5m ago

Post under review. Will be published by moderator shortly.

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Lello75  5m ago

@FastestLaps why does this show up in the home page even if you did not make it?

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Luque  5m ago

Long time that I did not post here. I think I have already explained it in Ferrari chat forum almost more than 10Y ago. The wind Tunnel use by Sport Auto at that time is without moving ground and with no wheels rotation. Basically the flat undertray and the rear diffuser of any car tested are not working you can see clearly in the picture whit the white smoke. Ferrari Pininfarina tunnel and, after 2012, Ferrati wind tunnel are equipped with moving ground. Probably Ferrari numbers are a bit exagerated, for sure Pininfarina at that time was not deliberating aerodynamic shapes with unbalance forces between Front and rear axes.

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nomoreZ  5m ago

Fantastic analysis; seriously should submit this to Sport Auto or Top Gear or some place that does investigative journalism about cars. Best article on cars I've read in quite some time. I created an account to thank you for this!

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Kwopiezung  5m ago

Real downforce

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Argo  6m ago

I personally have been suspecting for YEARS now that Saleen has been extremely dishonest for claimed downforce figures on the base S7 road car. The S7R has effective aero, but as a GT1 its bound to be at least a tad slippery in comparison to more modern machinery.

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Hostile  6m ago

Is there a compiled list of vehicles that were tested for aerodynamic performance by Sport Auto?

I tried browsing their website but they are very.... how can I put this.... German.

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Bill Barr  6m ago

The race car that never raced

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DodgeHEMI426  6m ago

I never really understand this overpromise & underdeliver-approach that some manufacturers take. Okay on one side claimed good data numbers might sell cars but on the other side you also set yourself up for disappointment in (comparison) tests.

While I don't necessarily agree with what some other manufacturers do that totally underrate their cars, I - if I was a manufacturer myself - would much rather take that approach so that everyone is surprised how good my cars are for the advertised power/weight/downforce-figures.

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Nikel  6m ago

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The first generation of the Audi TT most closely resembled the profile of an airplane wing, resulting in high lift and then Audi being forced to add a spoiler because drivers were losing control at high speeds on turns. No one remembers that story.


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Nikel  6m ago

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In fact, if you look at the profile of any car, you'll notice that it closely resembles the profile of an airplane wing. The air travel above the car is always longer than the air travel below the car, causing air to travel faster over the top, which creates lower pressure (sucking the car up), while simultaneously deflecting air downward, creating an upward force. Unsurprisingly, this profile produces lift, not downforce. That's why all supercars that compete in racing feature a wide variety of wings and spoilers. The only way to create downforce without wings is through ground effect, which is difficult to achieve on a road car with its ground clearance. If a car doesn't have massive spoilers and wings, the possibility that it has any significant downforce is zero.

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Hostile  6m ago

Italians are known for their honestly regarding super cars.

/End of joke

As an example, an E92 M3 GTS has a proper wing at the back and a splitter at the front and the quoted overall downforce number for that vehicle from BMW is around 35kg at 200 kph. That should give you an indicator for cars without any spoilers.

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