27 The Cadillac Escalade-V is not the most powerful full-size SUV

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Today GM has released full specifications for the Cadillac Escalade's high performance version, the V-Series, which utilizes the heart of a Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing and Chevy Camaro ZL1 - 682 horsepower LT4 V8. Close, but no cigar to the Dodge Durango SRT Hellcat's 710 ponies!

Cadillac calls this "the most powerful full-size SUV." While Dodge refers to Durango Hellcat as a midsize SUV, length, wheelbase, width, height, frame and especially towing capacity all prove otherwise.

A Dodge Durango is bigger than a Range Rover and barely smaller than a BMW X7 or Mercedes-Benz GLS-Class. By the way, I would even consider today's Ford Explorer and Lincoln Aviator full-size. America may have a different way of measuring full-size SUVs, but in Europe, anything over 5m long and 3m+ in wheelbase is a full-size no matter what.

The Escalade-V, even with its SAE-certified 682 hp rating gets its rear end kicked by the BMW Alpina XB7 and Mercedes-AMG GLS63, both of which make more power and are lighter too.

The Germans rate power output at wheels for performance cars and at crank for some of their mainstream cars, and AWD accounts for approximately 80% drivetrain efficiency (even up to 90% in advanced systems like M xDrive and AMG 4MATIC+). Germany's performance AWD cars are even better than RWD cars (85%) and on par with FWD ones in terms of power efficiency.

Seeing that the Alpina SAV is rated at 621 PS and the Mercedes SUV at 612 PS (both DIN figures), those are equivalents to 690 PS for the Alpina and up to 680 PS for the Mercedes in SAE "speak". Even then, both trucks provide a flatter torque curve than the Cadillac.

Also, the Aston Martin DBX707, Bentley Bentayga Speed, and Lamborghini Urus are full-size SUVs as well, not really mid-size. They are more coupe-like, but, at the same time, bigger than an X6M and a GLE63 "coupe", as well as the Cayenne Turbo GT. British and Italian by heritage, but German by heart, all of these truly make over 700 PS.

DBX707 = 707 PS / 0.90 = 785 PS
Bentayga V8 S = 550 PS / 0.80 = 687 PS
Bentayga W12 Speed = 635 PS / 0.90 = 705 PS
Urus = 650 PS / 0.90 = 722 PS

The Aston and the Lambo are more powerful than the Durango Hellcat as well.

2w ago by hostboy
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Bugatti4Life  5d ago

This post has received too much negative feedback and is hidden. Click here to show it anyway.

 

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hostboy  4d ago

for freakin incel guys and fat girls

Yeah, as far as the "incel guys and fat girls" go...

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Do you see any in those pictures above that fit your prejudice?


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Corvolet3  1w ago

That Escaladed quickly


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Cocobe  2w ago

GM is late to the party for senseless money spending. asset bubble just popped.

 

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hostboy  2w ago

GM?? Ford doesn't even have a competitor in this segment, just Dodge and Cadillac


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Cocobe  2w ago @hostboy

I think of that as a good thing.


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FastestLaps  2w ago

bubble just popped

Car prices (new and used) still near ATH unfortunately...


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hostboy  2w ago @Cocobe

Lol why?


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FastestLaps  2w ago @hostboy

He is hinting at the puking stock market.


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DodgeHEMI426  2w ago

"The Germans rate power output at wheels for performance cars and at crank for some of their mainstream cars"; "Seeing that the Alpina SAV is rated at 621 PS and the Mercedes SUV at 612 PS (both DIN figures), those are equivalents to 690 PS for the Alpina and up to 680 PS for the Mercedes in SAE "speak"."

Sorry but that is just wrong. Both SAE-hp and also DIN-PS measure power at the flywheel today (has been since that after 1972 when SAE changed from gross-hp to net-hp). It doesn't matter if performance or normal commuter car. It also makes much more sense because otherwise you'd need different power-ratings for different transmissions and also for cars that are offered both with all-wheel-drive and also just rear/front-wheel drive.

As for the conversion: An SAE-hp is even a tiny bit stronger than a DIN-PS - 1 SAE-hp amounts to 1.0139 DIN-PS. So a 2015 Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat had 707 SAE-hp and 717 DIN-PS.

 

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hostboy  2w ago

Don't believe everything you read on car brochures and calculators. While what you have said is true to an extent, that practice is outdated and remains only in formal publications and instrumented magazine test articles to keep greenhouse emission cowfarts and insurance companies from dictating big name brands in Europe.

Do you unironically believe that a small 300-"DIN-PS" VW T-Roc R SUV is going to crack a 12.xx-sec quartermile time even with that AWD system and no rollout?

This isn't the 1980s, '90s, 2000s, or even early 2010s anymore when almost every 6- and 8-cylinder German car was naturally aspirated and literally had to be rated at the crank. Germans these days are being recorded, have to keep secrets and advertise their wheel power as the general public's "crank power". Germany is pretty much the new Japan.

Currenrly, only four European brands do not underrate engine output — Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Maserati, and Volvo. (Land Rover is not part of this because now they use BMW engines.)

Lamborghini, Ferrari, and McLaren started underrating with the Huracán, 488, and 570S.

Porsche has been underrating cars since the 928 and the 911 Turbo both came out in the late 1970s.


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DodgeHEMI426  2w ago @hostboy

DIN and SAE are both official rating-standards. It is very well noted what is measured under which circumstances. Both standards are very close to each other if it comes to measuring horsepower nowadays.

Now if certain manufacturers are over- or underrating their power figures is an entirely different topic. Neither can it be generalized (a Porsche 992 GT3 won't exceed the official 510 DIN-PS rating by 15-20% - opposed to pretty much all Hellcat Dodges easily exceeding their factory ratings), nor is it an exact science that manufacturers follow.

"Sport Auto" always measures the power output of their supertest-cars and it is definitely not the case that German cars always offer a lot more power than advertised under the DIN-rating standard. There are some brands that stand out (BMW for example) but otherwise the power output is usually +/- within the industry tolerance. If drivetrain-losses were accounted for, you'd have to see constant overachieving by 10-20% and that is simply not the case.

So please be careful by stating stuff like this as if it was a fact. It is not. The rating standards have NOT changed and official output-figures are not systematically undervalued in a very similar fashion by an entire manufacturing country. This depends on the manufacturers and often on the engines in question.


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hostboy  2w ago @DodgeHEMI426

Now you're starting to come off as a troll... 😒


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DodgeHEMI426  2w ago @hostboy

Please elaborate. I am very much into the topic and what I state are facts that can be checked. Go and look into the certification-standards of a horsepower according to SAE and DIN. And please look up the mentioned supertests to check how much power German cars put on a dyno.


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hostboy  2w ago @DodgeHEMI426

If it's a supercharged or turbocharged car it is far more likely to be underrated than if it's naturally aspirated. It's not just the hp/ps difference that matters, but the industry's policy that matters. SAE certification ratings tend to be more strict.

Not all dynos are created equal either, some rely on a 5% loss effort, others use 15%.

At least cars like the Hellcat and Demon have the advantage of using 100 octane race gas without modifying the internals of their engines, and it's the same with any high-performance supercharged or turbocharged engine.

Turbocharged cars with displacements smaller than a 4.0L 6-cylinder or 5.0L V8 (see: 992 Turbo, F90 M5, W213 E63 AMG, C8 RS6 and RS7) all can use up to 112 octane race gas.

Magazines and YouTubers alike use these octane ratings in secret to make their cars "look" better than they actually are in terms of real-world performance (ala 91 to 95 octane unleaded premium gas)


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DodgeHEMI426  2w ago @hostboy

Now I really hate people that can't just stay factual and do proper research and then try to legitimate their statements with whataboutism. Just looking at how you recalculate official power figures with seemingly random coefficients that lack any factual basis seems like quackery and frankly a joke.

Have a good day.


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196ss  1w ago @DodgeHEMI426

Absolutely agree with you, there is no universal formula for determining the real power of a car. The same manufacturer may underrate power to varying degrees for different models, or may not underrate it at all.
At the same time, many German manufacturers really tend to declare not the peak engine power, but rather some average power in a certain rpm range, which is apparently measured in not the best conditions.
In this case, it really does turn out that the peak power at the wheels is close to the claimed engine power. Perhaps that's what Hostboy meant if you discard 90% of the nonsense he wrote here.


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TypeF173  1w ago @196ss

It's pretty messed up situation. Confusing as hell.


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SpeedKing  1w ago @196ss

"Perhaps that's what Hostboy meant if you discard 90% of the nonsense he wrote here."

You're much too kind

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DodgeHEMI426  1w ago @196ss

It's possible - although I've seen many German/European cars being dynoed in the German test magazine "Sport Auto" and - apart from BMWs and some McLarens that sometimes actually overachieved by 10% over their factory rating - they are usually within a tolerance margin. Porsche as a good example was pretty much always within 10-20 hp of the factory DIN-rating.


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hostboy  1w ago @DodgeHEMI426

Don't believe "dyno" tests, look at magazine tests. Especially US mag tests. An Audi SQ7 just as fast as a Dodge Durango Hellcat with JUST the power level of an SRT 392?!

Using dyno tests as a source for your claim is like calling artificially flavored drinks and snacks "healthy" because they have some "fruity/veggie" ingredients...


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196ss  1w ago @DodgeHEMI426

Mercedes and Audi power outputs at the Sport Auto tests are also sometimes slightly higher than claimed.
I remember reading in the some interview with a high-ranking VAG official a few years ago that the company's policy is to allow +/-5% deviations in output of identical engines, but that the output can't be less then listed at the vehicle passport. This wording alone implies that the actual power output of a certain car can easily be 10% higher than claimed. I think roughly the same approach is used by Porsche.
The 992 gen at the Sport Auto tests:
Carrera S - claimed 450, measured 477 (+6.0%)
Turbo S - claimed 650, measured 680 (+4.6%).


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DodgeHEMI426  6d ago @hostboy

Yes, because a performance test with two vastly different cars tells us more about the power output of a car than a dyno test, which measures what? Yes you guessed right, the power output of a car... What's the matter with you?

There's so much else that goes into the performance of a car other than just the maximum power output. If we look at your comparison we have a HUGE Durango on a pretty old platform that weighs roughly 200 kg more, has worse aerodynamics and is alltogether a very different car. Could the SQ7 have more power than advertised? Very well possible, so do many Hellcat Dodges. As a matter of fact if you pair up a Hellcat Jeep Trackhawk and a Hellcat Durango you will receive quite different results albeit having the same engine with comparable power output.


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DodgeHEMI426  6d ago @196ss

That is true, although I can't remember many cars that stretched the 5% wiggle room (which if I remember correctly is also a law in Europe). The new 992 Porsches did have some more power, but the 991s were almost always on point. If I'm not wrong both the GT3 RS and the Turbo S were less than 5 hp away from the official rating.

What is definitely true is that newer German turbo-cars (so basically all new cars) almost never fall short of their rating. It was much different with N/A-cars, as an E92 M3 or RS4/RS5/R8 4.2 FSI almost never reached the claimed output.


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dewofihuiok  3d ago

Actually, they measure using average power, just multiply by 1.10, (the power is 10% higher than claimed usually for german cars)


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Shwingbob  2w ago

I'll add it later


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hostboy  2w ago

The Dodge Durango and Ford Explorer are only considered "midsize" for marketing reasons and because Americans have bigger parking spaces than Europeans. The Chevy Traverse doesn't really make the cut in the segment however because it's an extended wheelbase variant of the GMC Acadia, which is a FWD, minivan-themed crossover and doesn't drive like an SUV.

GM approached things much differently with the Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon than Ford and Stellantis did with the Ford Expedition and Jeep Wagoneer. Even the Maserati Levante borders between midsize (length and weight) and full-size (wheelbase and equipment level), and that truck rivals the Lincoln Aviator.

Anyway, the Expedition and Wagoneer are not as mass-produced as the Tahoe. Ford and Stellantis wanted to make their trucks more exclusive and more luxurious by adding higher equipment trims (such as Platinum and Grand); well, Ford did that to cross-compete with its own Lincoln Navigator, which competes with some of those flagship German offerings plus the Lexus LX600/750h. The Jeep Grand Wagoneer is more of an Infiniti QX80 competitor with some old-school mentality attached to it.

The Yukon Denali is, these days, the most logical competitor to Ford and Jeep. The entry-level Tahoe (5.3L model) is basically a competitor, albeit indirectly, to the Explorer. The Escalade-V kind of mixes with Lincoln Aviator Grand Touring Black Label and Maserati Levante GTS (not Trofeo though, that one will beat it and even outprice it) in terms of overall performance and equipment level.

Hence why it's way more common to see both Tahoe and Explorer cop trucks where I live ;)

GM really only wanted to provide one quality RWD offering with a quantity amount of variants.

GM builds cars for the family. Ford and Stellantis build cars for the individual, the former with its fashion and economy factors, and the latter with its cool and fun factors.