Aston Martin Valkyrie vs Czinger 21C vs Mercedes - AMG One

Picture of Aston Martin Valkyrie
Picture of Czinger 21C
Picture of Mercedes - AMG One
Category ValkyrieCzinger 21COne
Engine layout V12V8V6
Max power (ps) 117612671063
Max torque (Nm) 9001439
Curb weight (kg) 103012501695
Power / tonne (ps) 11421014627

Summary

Category ValkyrieCzinger 21COne
Track Performance 000
Straight line speed 000
Total 000

Verdict

There is no clear winner in this comparison.

However, FastestLaps.com does not have enough lap times and performance data to make this comparison conclusive.

This comparison has been viewed 1.4k times.

User avatar
User avatar

Cumi cumi  5d ago

Valkyrie wins on any track, that's some pyshics right there, people just underestimate Valkyries aero capabilities, just look at its underbody tunnel, and counting the weight of it is just crazy to imagine

 

User avatar

Lambullshitni   5d ago

Physics:

"the branch of science concerned with the nature and properties of matter and energy. The subject matter of physics includes mechanics, heat, light and other radiation, sound, electricity, magnetism, and the structure of atoms."

WTF.

๐Ÿ™„


User avatar

Z31Turbo84  3m ago

The next holy trinity?


User avatar

TypeF173  5m ago

Quote>"Discover the all-new Mercedes-AMG ONE, a SAVAGE blend of science and spirit."

https://www.mbusa.com/en/future-vehicles/mercedes-amg-one


User avatar

Corvolet3  5m ago

Nice cars. Which one will actually make it into production? ;)


User avatar

SupGuys  6m ago

Valkyrie from Clash Royale???? hahahahaha


User avatar

T-Pain  6m ago

This post has received too much negative feedback and is hidden. Click here to show it anyway.


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago

Also I've been looking at very specific car at the Nurburgring. I came across a very interesting piece of research from around five years ago. Rather than just cut and paste it, I'd rather look at the factors and take into account that particular hypercars technical specifications, but there are too many variables and factors to consider. It's not like your predicting a 0-200MPH time. So definitely very soon I'll release that time with the research. It's very impressive.


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago

In an imaginary universe what would happen if the Valkyrie, Czinger and the AMG One all attempted a Nurb record 20.6km on the same day with the same tyres(say Cup2R's) with factory drivers?

Here's my guesstimate

Valkyrie......... 6 min 32 sec
AMG One.......6 min 35 sec
Czinger..........6 min 38 sec

Thoughts anyone?๐Ÿค”

 

User avatar

196ss  6m ago

Well, Czinger's capabilities are already more or less known. Based on the COTA and Laguna Seca runs, I'd say it could do 6:33 at the Ring with full factory support, and somewhere between 6:45-6:50 in the magazine test. As for the AMG One and the Valkyrie, we can only fantasize. I will assume that Merc will be a bit faster, because for Germans Nordschleife is sweet home, and the Valkyrie would be a little slower.
Let's say the Valkyrie time is 6:35, and AMG One - 6:29.


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @196ss

Interesting that you you've got the AMG One ahead of the Valkyrie. Of course we may never know but i suspect Mercedes will make an attempt on the lap record sometime this year given all the testing they did there last year...


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @SpeedKing

So the "experts" are saying the Ferrari SF90 has the potentialities for 6.40 on certain "owner" sites and in doing so beating the Lamborghini Aventador SVJ by just over 4 seconds? That's the number I've got on my mind.Going quicker or slower depending on hypercar.๐Ÿค”


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @196ss

Interesting. Thanks.


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @TypeF173

6:40 flat for SF90 is probably too optimistic. I think 6:43 with AF package is the ceiling.
As for the SVJ, we can't use its Nordschleife laptime for benchmarking. From the results on other tracks and reviews, we can see that SVJ is faster than Perfomante only slightly. And here the difference at once in as much as 7 seconds.
Either it is an incredible magic of piloting from Mapelli (although Perfomante was also driven by him), or it is some kind of a cheating.


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @196ss

Fair enough. I know there's been controversy surrounding Lamborghini for years.

I just picked up the Ferrari SF90 number from one of the owners forums as an estimate.

Speaking of which, I'm made one for the SSC Tuatara standard specifications model. So not the high downforce model the Striker. I'm happy to sign off on a 7 minute 12 seconds start point for her in low boost low power mode. In reality, I feel with the right driver she can possibly go under 7 minutes into the high 6 minute bracket with good conditions, good weather and the right reliability levels on quality tyres over the course of the track. So, there it is. LOL!


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago

Well I've attempt my first ever calculations for the SSC Tuatara above. It'll possibly raise some>๐Ÿ˜‚ but I feel it's possible. Definitely as a starting point. Atleast. I'm also very deadly serious too!๐Ÿ˜ˆ


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @196ss

Lamborghini was accused of cheating when they broke the Nurb record with the SVJ. Some said that they sped up the video. Others claimed that they were using a softer compound TrofeoR. These claims are unproven and most likely nonsense. I compared the SVJ and Performante laps to see why there was a 7 sec difference. I can tell you that the SVJ gained 2 sec just on the main straight and also 1 sec on the long downhill Kesselchen section. The additional time was gained by driving at the absolute limit of adhesion including losing traction in a few areas. So bottom line is that, from what i could glean, Mapelli was driving the SVJ harder than the Performante hence the time difference...


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @SpeedKing

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a32879/lamborghini-huracan-performante-nurburgring-record-faked-data/

I eventually found this. It has data charts in it. There's a Muppet in the article that went from strong doubting to 100% believing in the same breath. CVK makes an appearance too with his informed opinions, I'm sure.

All proven wrong. Bye!

LOL!


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @TypeF173

Yeah the doubters are full of shit. The chrome dome was just pissed off because his "hypercars" were slower there. The SV lap was on Pirelli PZero Corsa's so if it had Trofeo's that would've been a 6:55 lap. The SVJ would've done a 6:42 on Cup2R's so tyres matter. The Lambo and Porsche factory drivers are the cream of the crop in GT3 Cup Racing so one would expect phenomenal times from them...

https://www.gt-world-challenge-europe.com/driver/2636/marco-mapelli


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @SpeedKing

Yes they are. I've literally just finished reading what he said about the Lamborghini Huracan Performante. WTAF?๐Ÿ˜‚


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @SpeedKing

On the straights, SVJ will certainly have an advantage on the Ring, as well as on any other track. But, the Perfomante has to make up for the twisty sections and hard braking zones, of which there are plenty at the Ring. I'm not going to make any accusations against Lamborghini, so explaining the SVJ's speed at the Ring with atypically efficient piloting from Mapelli is fine with me. What I was going to say is that it's wrong to use SVJ laptime to make analytical comparisons with the factory laptimes of other cars at Nordschleife. On the same tires, SVJ is probably faster than the GT2RS, but I don't think it can beat AMG Black Series and GT2RS Manthey Racing. If, as you say, 6:42 is possible for SVJ on Cup 2R, there is also should be room for improvement for the AMG BS and GT2RS MR at a similar level of piloting, perhaps even below 6:40.


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @TypeF173

I have no problem admitting 6:52 for Perfomante. It's faster than Porsche 918 on most tracks, and on some by quite a margin. However, agree that the fact that, SVJ shines only at the Ring in Mapelli's hands and looks much more modest on all other tracks, cannot help but raise questions...


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @196ss

It's an astute assessment. It does raise questions. But I've seen the charts and data for the SVJ verified. But nothing I can recall for the Performance.๐Ÿค”


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @196ss

Ok the SVJ had a roll cage and no passenger seat(to partially compensate for the additional weight of the cage). In addition it is my suspicion that it had race pads because Lamborghini decided that the "street friendly" pads they used in the SVJ weren't really up to the task with extreme driving. Whether or not that falls into the category of modification is debatable.

Re the AMG GT BS the driver was Maro Engel who is the equal of Mapelli, Kern, Estre etc so it was driven to its limit
https://www.driverdb.com/drivers/maro-engel/


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @SpeedKing

Quote>"Ok the SVJ had a roll cage and no passenger seat(to partially compensate for the additional weight of the cage)."

Definitely seen this before!๐Ÿค”


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @SpeedKing

So you seriously believe that on the same rubber SVJ is faster than AMG BS???


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @196ss

I am using the Nurb record lap times exclusively with the cars that were used to compare the SVJ/AMG GT BS. Of course a stock SVJ doesn't have a roll cage nor passenger seat removed nor for that matter the race pads i believe Lamborghini used in their record lap. The reason the stock SVJ has the "street friendly" pads is that they bite brilliantly when the brakes are cold unlike race pads which obviously need temperature in them and don't fade after extreme driving.

So on that basis yes the SVJ will just edge out the AMG GT BS at the Nurb using the same rubber with the GT3 Cup racing drivers Mapelli/Engel. On other racetracks without any of those changes to the SVJ the AMG GT BS will be slightly faster with factory drivers behind the wheel...


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @SpeedKing

Racing pads will certainly help, given the heavy weight of the SVJ, but even with them, it can't really compete with AMG BS.
The difference between them in only 1.3 seconds at the Ring is either conditions or the superiority of Mapelli over Engel, but not the real state of affairs.
Just look at the results at other tracks. Merc is in different league.

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/h8lllsi5o8ia


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @196ss

Yes i'm well aware that the AMG BS has trumped the SVJ on other tracks but you do need to bear in mind that practically all the drivers in the comparisons are journo drivers who will never ever be able to extract the same performance Mapelli can. The SVJ is much more difficult to drive at the limit than the AMG BS and as i said earlier if we had Mapelli and Engel driving on those tracks the AMG BS will have the edge but not by the same margin you see in the comparisons๐Ÿ˜‰

Oh and don't forget that the AMG BS Cup2R's give it an immediate 1-1.5 sec advantage over the TrofeoR's...


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @196ss

I would also remind you to never judge things based on face value like 99% of posters here tend to do. It's only when you understand and factor in all the details that you begin to see the real picture...

you-smart.jpg?550x800m


User avatar

Cocobe  6m ago

depending on the tires being used, I think the Valkyrie if driven properly could absolutely smash all records and be even in the 6:0X range. But likely they'd go a little easy and not push too hard - so 6:1X is my guess.


User avatar

SpeedKing  6m ago @Cocobe

You're way too optimistic. The Valkyrie will no doubt be a rocket at Monza, Spa but not at the Nurb. It won't close to the traction of the Volk ID.R which was super fast into corners at the Nurb but we'll probably never know because i don't see the Valkyrie going for a record there...


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @SpeedKing

That's the thing, I make my judgments not on the basis of one single factory lap record run, but on the basis of all available information about these cars. So I recommend that you also follow your advice.
I have found nothing anywhere else to support your assertion that SVJ is more difficult to master than the AMG BS. The only thing I've found from reviews is that SVJ is more malleable than Aventador LP700 and SV. The AMG BS isn't so easy either - RWD and turbo require dexterity.
The strengths of the BS on the track will be high-speed and medium-speed corners (more downforce, more mechanical grip, more power in the middle rpm range), hard braking sections (downforce again, wider front tyres, less weight).
The SVJ's strengths should be the long straight sections (less air resistance due to the ALA-2), slow corners and twisty sections (all-wheel drive, superior NA engine responsiveness).
Mendig track is more of a straight stretch with slow corners, so it's as favorable as possible for the SVJ. However, as we can see, AMG BS is 1.7% faster there, which is basically the difference in grip between Cup 2 R and Trofeo R. At Hockenheim and Lausitz, where fast corners are present, the Merc advantage increases to 3.3-3.9%.
It's hard for me to estimate the impact of the roll cage and seat removal, but I think it's unlikely to be significant.
It's also known that it's much harder to put together a perfect lap (almost impossible) at the Nordschleife than at other tracks. Sport Auto didn't test SVJ at the Ring, but the difference between Gebhardt and Mapelli on the Perfomante was 16 seconds, while the difference between Gebhardt and Engel in AMG GT BS was 9 seconds. This is also an indication that Merc has something left on the table in my opinion.


User avatar

196ss  6m ago @Cocobe

What would be your estimations for AMG One and Czinger?


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @196ss

6.25-6.29 seconds region.


User avatar

Shwingbob  6m ago

Im going to take a funky ass guess and say the czinger will be the fastest.
I mean it has 650kg of downforce at 100mph and 2,500kg at 200mph.
while at max the valkrie only makes 4000 pounds of downforce at max.
The czinger also has a higher (claimed) top speed and higher (claimed) acceleration. so I dont see why the Valkyrie would be faster


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @Shwingbob

I don't believe those downforce figures for Czinger for a minute. Particularly peak figures.

I also have trouble believing Aston Martin figures for the road going production specifications Valkyrie, they've never listed them officially to my knowledge. In fact too many figures are missing. But they have the or had the skills of Adrian Newey and NOBODY knows aerodynamics like he does.

The other problem with Czinger is there are no final specifications or homologated production cars ready to be tested until Q4 2023. They've stated that and it's a fact. And there's no way that pre production prototype isn't changing in the next nearly two years. Czingers current pre production prototype records are exactly that. And it doesn't matter what they say. *Verified, unofficial.

Just like Bugatti? 304.773MPH. Pre production prototype's. No production record and wouldn't have been anyway. Two way averages.

So it's looking like 2024 for customers specifications cars.

Aston Martin are ready to go with Valkyrie road cars and AMR Pro Valkyries for unofficial lap records for track only cars right now. They are ex FIA GT World Championship winners also and will be formidable opponents.

Mercedes Benz AMG One's are also not currently available.



User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @Shwingbob

Quote>"In fact, the underfloor aerodynamics will REPORTEDLY generate 4,000 pounds of downforce."

Quote>"they've never listed them OFFICIALLY to my knowledge."

So like I said?

I know specifically where that number came from, an Aston Martin OG will any of them would. And they stated what others construe as absolute bullshit figures in that interview too for other thing(s). It was computer simulated and generated at the time.


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @196ss

The Pagani Huyara BC could spring a surprise and although the Koenigsegg Jesko is coming I'm unsure of it's potential just yet.


User avatar

Shwingbob  6m ago @TypeF173

hyauara bc only had 1.3% difference from the senna at spa but the czinger has a 2.5% difference at circuit of the Americas. Czinger = goated

at Laguna Seca which (to my knowledge) is quite similar to the Nurburingring compared to other tracks the czinger 5% faster than the 918 at laguna seca using this and the 918 Nurburgring lap and it still bieng 5% faster at the nurburgring it should do a 6:3X


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @Shwingbob

Quote>"Czinger = pre production prototype."

McLaren Senna and Pagani Huyara BC were specified finished delivered customer cars.

McLaren Senna had I've been told 19 individual PRODUCTION lap records or did? The Pagani Huyara BC was independently tested and verified by Car and Driver Magazine last year? Solid numbers? Quattroroute prior to that? Not fictional numbers based on 3D computers.

Again Q4 2023 delivery. So currently Czinger for the the purposes of PRODUCTION lap records are irrelevant. Period.


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @Shwingbob

And why are you boring me with numbers for? I~ already gave my verdict? So, what are you trying to tell me?

Something I know? Or don't know?๐Ÿ˜‚


User avatar

Shwingbob  6m ago @TypeF173

using logic to predict the time?


User avatar

TypeF173  6m ago @Shwingbob

Yes, mine were quicker than yours? Bye!๐Ÿ˜‚๐Ÿ’ฏ๐Ÿคฆ


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @196ss

You've raised some interesting points which was not borne out in the Nurb lap comparison where both cars were practically identical in slow, medium and fast corners. In fact it was the last 18 secs where the AMG GT BS was 1.5 sec faster because it appeared something happened to the Lambo and it slowed past the bridge which i cannot explain. I've examined the Hockenheim laps and yes the AMG GT BS was considerably faster but that doesn't surprise me given that Gebhardt has proven that he cannot drive the SVJ nor the Performante so using that lap time is of NO value whatsoever. His corner speed in the Performante at the Nurb was between 8-12km/h slower than Mapelli and both cars had roll cages using TrofeoR's so think about it.


User avatar

196ss  5m ago @SpeedKing

That's why I suppose that BS underperformed at the Ring, and SVJ overperformed there.

 


User avatar

hostboy  5m ago @196ss

Turbo Powaahh!!!


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @196ss

How in the green hell did you come to the conclusion that the AMG GT BS underperformed at the Ring?? I reckon Maro Engel their gun driver might be offended by your assertion...


User avatar

TypeF173  5m ago @196ss

Well well!


User avatar

196ss  5m ago @SpeedKing

Well no, I'm not questioning Maro Engel's abilities:)
I mean, when Porsche tests their cars at the Ring, they squeeze everything possible out of the car, choose the best conditions and try different pilots. That is, they fight for every thousandth of a second. Many other automobile manufacturers (including Mercedes) just come to Nordschleife and set a record and are satisfied with it.
Remember the story of the GT63 S? Damien Schaeffert set the record time, then Porsche broke it with Panamera, then Mercedes came back with the same Schaeffert at the wheel and improved the time by a couple of seconds.
By all logic, AMG BS's best time should fall between 6:38 GT2RS MR and 6:47 regular GT2RS, but closer to Manthey Racing.


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @196ss

Porsche have used two drivers in the last 5 years to break Nurb records, Lars Kern and Kevin Estre. Kern in 2018 recorded 6:40.33 in the MR and last year went slightly faster with 6:38.84 which is 1.49 faster. Engel is Mercedes no1 driver so yes if the conditions were better he might improve the lap time by the same margin which would equate to a 6:42. But let's not forget they were all on Cup2R's(fastest semi-slick) and it is my belief that if the SVJ returned on Cup2R's we would see a 6:42 as well so bottom line the AMG BS and SVJ with the fastest drivers would be inseparable time wise at the Nurb...


User avatar

TypeF173  5m ago @SpeedKing

What can the STO do on sexy tyres?๐Ÿค”


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @TypeF173

It would need 700hp to match the pace of the SVJ and AMG GT BS at the Nurb...


User avatar

TypeF173  5m ago @SpeedKing

Oh I know my question sorry was more to do with vis a vis the Performantes time? I was thinking maybe 2-3-4 seconds possibly quicker?


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @TypeF173

Yeah with TrofeoR's i'd say 3-4 sec max.


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @196ss

For me the biggest mistake Lamborghini made with the SVJ was using their so called "street friendly" brake pads. Yes they will do the job if you're driving it on the street and not pushing it to the limit but on a race track they're simply not up to the task. Randy Pobst complained about the brakes at Willow Springs as did Christian Menzel at Mendig and i also recall Duncan Tappy at Silverstone saying he was running out of brakes after a few laps so on that basis the brake pads are the SVJ's Achilles heel. ๐Ÿ™„


User avatar

196ss  5m ago @SpeedKing

Lieb, Bergmeister


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @196ss

Lieb is retired and i think Porsche got Bergmeister to drive the Cayman at the Nurb because Kern hurt his back and has been out of action for a while...


User avatar

196ss  5m ago @SpeedKing

Maybe so.
In any case, Porsche probably has the largest team of professional pilots worldwide. And the intra-team competition is very high.
For example, Leh Keen and David Donohue set records on US tracks.

But, it seems that we are already very far away from the original topic...๐Ÿ™ƒ


User avatar

SpeedKing  5m ago @196ss

Ha what was the topic again?๐Ÿ˜‚


User avatar

Mark  6d ago @196ss

I think the AMG ONE would be definitely the slowest of the three.


User avatar

FastestLaps  6d ago @Mark

Mercedes need to come out with AMG One R, which would be track-only. Like Kawasaki H2 and H2 R where the non-R is road legal but heavily restricted, due to emissions etc.

Crazy collectors would still value the road AMG One. And eventually, once they get a better idea on how to go about implementing the emissions stuff Mercedes could come out with updated road legal AMG One, like Honda did with NSX-R where they fixed all the obvious performance bottlenecks in regular NSX.

Mercedes could even redesign the F1 derived V6 with considerably larger displacement (2.5 liters+) and it would still have the F1 sound and "ambience" (as well as the pedigree), but it would be much easier to reach the emissions goals and they would get better torque curve with less sacrifices.


User avatar

Cocobe  6d ago @FastestLaps

i would imagine it be better with the same engine, with the restrictions lifted, giving it another 200+hp, and smaller batteries. pulling out the weight would be more significant than the extra hp.