BMW M5 CS specs

NO! The Mercedes Benz Class is ONE thing! But NOT the Mercedes Benz E Class too? That's a Mercedes Benz A Class engine? It's completely wrong.

Hostboy I wanna advance in track tuning for FH5 what do I do?

I play FH2 but I suggest if you have an XBOX simply add racing slick tires (not sport tires) and then a splitter but only if your car has extra power, then of course add brakes and a roll cage, don't add too much power, just moderate levels (20% more power should be enough, not 100% from some crazy VR38 or LS9 swap), differential upgrade is important because it'll make your car spin around more easily

PlayStation Forza Horizon and both XBOX+PlayStation Forza Motorsport all allow for even easier tuning with tire psi, differential lock and gear ratio adjustments

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American cars > German, Italian and ESPECIALLY Japanese cars and that is based on facts. Americans have the balls to throw 305s up front and in the back

People who say American cars are garbage use opinions or BS homeless lady-style stories. People who say most imports are junk use fact-accepting evidence to prove their opinion (advice)

This whole "American (muscle) cars are rubbish" notion is outdated and might have been the case 10-15 years ago, but cars like the Camaro SS 1LE, ZL1 1LE, Mustang Mach 1 Handling Pack, Shelby GT350 Track Pack/350R, GT500 Handling Pack / CFTP, even the Challenger and Charger Widebody models have skidpad numbers and many lap times on the same level as supercars

The Redeye Widebody twins are based on a 2004 platform and they are faster than an F430 and a Series 1 Gallardo on 100% of tracks despite each weighing 1000+ lbs more. They smoke the Jaguar F-Type R and Acura NSX Type S on 80%+ of road courses too.

The Camaro ZL1 1LE finished a lap of Germany's north loop only a few seconds short of the C7 Corvette Z06-7, AMG GT R, and NISMO GT-R, easily on par with 991.2 GT3 (not the RS version though). The Mustang Shelby GT500 CFTP was faster on one track than even a VX1 Viper ACR.

Even the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing slots between a McLaren 720S (without the Track Pack) and a Ferrari 488 GTB on half the American road courses, and it's especially faster than a BMW M5 CS and that pathetic junker Tesla Model S Plaid-Pajamas.

"American muscle cars are rubbish" is a groupthink heavily popularized by OG BBC Top Gear and Clarkson in particular.

Many of his criticisms were absolutely valid.

then tell me this, why nobody gives two fukcs about them all across europe ? :)

murican cars are good for murican buyers, in the eu, nobody is stupid enough to spend over 100k euros on a murican car and let go of vw-911-porsche/bmw/mercedes/audi etc....

do you even know that chevy has a bad image in europe ? who'd want to go to work and end up kissing the curb or a tree fist thing in the morning ? the cars you mentioned were driven by pro drivers on the track with a crew checking thoroughly on the cars condition and this is your every day driver behind the wheels that believes he too can pull a wheelie and feel great about it.

eu car makers don't care much about murican cars and their lap times, cause by end of the day they know it has zero effect on their market and v8 noise of murican cars is a big no no and doesn't sound too exotic :)

inside the eu, what really matters is what it can do on a daily basis, summer + winter seasons / reliability / parts / build quality / traction / cargo - storage / room for passengers / ride comfort on long trips / noise.

to an idiot like you, it has to be a bit of a drama and tons of smoke, until you get caught :)

a c8 stingray is close to 100k - 120k euro depending on options and tax, and this is a fairly specced vw-911 cs which is around 128k euro and it will do everything the chevy can and better with backseats and it's underrated and will stomp the c8 with a v8 that's all noise and tire smoke :)

eu petrolheads get excited only when they see the supercars and not some import based on a supercar with a bang for buck deal with an offer that reads, buy 1 car and get a box full of doritos and nachos and a 6-pack budweiser beer :)

these are legendary cars with a timeless design that are selling for over 6, 7 and 8 digits in 2022 and could go higher :)

even your good friends the japs do prefer eu cars and don't pay much attention to muscle cars :)

only 1 vette :)

what you're trying to do is, compare budget cars that depreciate and don't age very well to the gems above that are always in high demand and when everything turns into full ev, everyone will be fighting to get their hands on one :)

in murica we have this issue, an issue you need to overcome before it takes over your brain and body :)

"chevy has a bad image in europe"

You do know GM used to own Vauxhall and Opel, right (and even Saab!)? Many Saturns were in fact based on Vauxhalls, and the Toyota Matrix was actually even based on the Pontiac Vibe (not the other way around)?

BMW and Mercedes even assemble SUVs in America, as do Volvo and Subaru.

American supercars? The Ford GT, Mosler MT900, naturally aspirated Saleen S7 (the Twin Turbo version counts as a hypercar). America doesn't build enough REAL supercars. Personally, I would count the Viper and Corvette (outside of their highly trackfocused variants) as grand tourers, like the Toyota GR Supra 3.0, Mercedes-AMG GT, Porsche 911, and most of the Aston Martin family.

The reason why America doesn't build enough supercars is because they (minus Tesla) mostly prioritize the UAW, which is highly focused on building cheap and average cars. The Corvette Z06 and ZR1 + the Dodge Viper would be even more expensive if they weren't built by the UAW.

Btw, Ford owned Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin, etc... Mercedes and Chrysler shared powertrains too.

BMW and Land Rover most certainly used GM's automatic transmissions in the 1990s and 2000s. Lamborghini even used Chrysler automatic transmissions in the 1970s and 1980s before they were even "owned" by Chrysler.

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"v8 noise of murican cars is a big no no and doesn't sound too exotic"

Except there is no such thing as American sound, European sound, etc., when it comes to cars. They're not humans, the accents of crossplane V8s are all the same, just like flat-plane V8s sound the same. The only thing that makes each V8 different from each other (keeping the crankshaft in mind) is the oversquare or undersquare bore and stroke ratio.

Undersquare (lower bore and higher stroke) engines are the male motors, oversquare (higher bore and lower stroke) engines are the female motors. Equal or similar square engines (give or take 2.5mm or 0.1") are also female, but with some masculine traits/hobbies.

From each of the Big 3 (Americans) & each of the Big 3 (Germans):

Chrysler 6.2L V8SC = female (103.9mm x 90.9mm / 4.09" x 3.58")
Ford 5.2L V8SC = masculine female (94mm x 93mm / 3.70" x 3.66")
General Motors 6.2L V8SC = female (103.25mm x 92mm / 4.06" x 3.62")

Audi 4.0L V8TT = masculine female (86mm x 86mm / 3.39" x 3.39")
BMW 4.4L V8TT = masculine female (89mm x 88.3mm / 3.50" x 3.48")
Mercedes 4.0L V8TT = male (83mm x 92mm / 3.27" x 3.62")

An oversquare flat-plane-crank engine, like the one used in the AMG GT Black Series and the Aston Martin Valhalla, is a feminine male motor, one of the rarest of its kind.

Not interested in your Arabic pizza reviews. Sorry.

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"ford gt fake supercar with a v6"

Without the GT, the NSX/Artura/MC20/296 would never exist... they got their influence from the GT

Elon Musk: cheater? check. adulterer? check. liar? check. tax evader? check. c/p pizza and hot dogs industry maker? check. hollywood insider? check. founder of the incel/hotep ideology? check.

I will NEVER buy a car from Tesla. EVER. He secretly worked with a lot of weirdos at Viacom, Disney and TimeWarner to sneak inappropriate (adult/innuendo) messages into "kiddie" shows...

I will NOT touch a single thing Elon makes. If I EVER catch my girlfriend or platonic female friend driving a Tesla, I will break up that relationship immediately. If a dude friend of mine has a Tesla, I will sell his car immediately and buy him six protein shakes before he gets punked by a bunch of military and football dudes. Tesla is worse than OnlyFans and soymilk combined.

the downsize happened because of eu tight emission regulations and has nothing to do with ford and its shit ass v6 which disappointed a lot of raptor owners, so stop lying and making up bs stories that only exists in your world of black meth and flying alligators :)

Contrary to popular belief, the Ford GT never used a truck engine. The 3.5 in the Ford GT is indeed similar in bore and stroke to the one in the Raptor, and technically it is part of the 3.5 EcoBoost family but actually the one in the GT came out first and this was the first of the 2nd-gen 3.5EB engines.

It was VERY RARE for a supercar to have a V6 back then. Only Jaguar XJ220 and that's it.

Not to mention the GT was designed to rev up to 7100 rpm, and the Raptor doesn't even rev to 6000.

Why would anyone want a truck sitting up high that could rev over 6,000 rpms ?

Unless, you want to land on your roof and record it live and it goes viral.

Same engine with less revs and probably less aggressive cams. Ford wouldn't go that far and do two separate engines for their supercar and truck.

Lexus did the same with the LS 460 and GX 460.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/gt

Unlike the supercharged V-8 in the previous-generation GT, the new car is equipped with a twin-turbocharged 3.5-liter V-6 engine that is similar to the one found in the Ford F-150 Raptor.

Murica has some nice hypercars

True. Very true. But none of them are from the big Detroit Three brands or have large enough production numbers to compare with European hypercars, such as the Mecedes-AMG ONE and the Ferrari SF90 Stradale.

Here is the facts. American cars will never be greater than German or Italian even Japanese. America hardly even produces sedans anymore because BMW and Benz have dominated sedans for so long. Ever heard of a Porsche 911 gt3? Laps the Nurburgring in under 7min Without turbo or supercharger. Not a single American car has ever done it under 7min even being supercharged or turbo. BMW is the Gold standard of sedans and always will be. German autos rule while American auto drools like you and then goes out of business!

Phony GM will never be faster than BMW. They have tried and tried and tried but they never will be. Maybe they should try to pay back all that bailout money tho. You must be a part of the Phony American news media. Im done talking to you before I lose IQ points

You and your facts along with American cars are Trash. German cars rule while you Drool from inside a Plagiarizing Domestic BMW wannabe!

BMW first car is better than Cadillac last! Go home hostboy!

McClaren F1. BMW naturally aspirated engine with Gold in engine bay. What does Roastboy know about that!?

Not a single American car has ever done it under 7min even being supercharged or turbo.

The Viper lapped the 'ring in 7:01.33 (correct me if I'm wrong) without a single supercharger or turbocharger. If it had a dual-clutch instead of a manual, it would do that in less than 7

The ACR version came out YEARS BEFORE that new 992, let alone the GT3

Nah I don't hate German cars, I just hate their toxic fanbases. I rarely see any such toxicity in the American car community. I'll explain that later

Quote>"German cars rule."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/08/business/volkswagen-bmw-daimler-emissions-scandal.html#:~:text=Daimler%20and%20BMW%20became%20tainted,to%20the%20settlement%20on%20Thursday.

Quote>"Germany’s three largest carmakers colluded illegally to limit the effectiveness of their emissions technology, leading to higher levels of harmful diesel pollution, European antitrust authorities said Thursday.

Volkswagen and its Porsche and Audi divisions must pay 500 million euros, or $590 million, and BMW will pay €373 million, or $442 million, as part of a settlement with the European Commission related to the cartel. Daimler avoided a fine that would have totaled €727 million because it blew the whistle on the plot, the European Commission said."

😂

Go Dailmer! I never even knew! But the Americans got them regardless with a far larger fine. And here in the United Kingdom they're facing very serious legal action too.

LITERALLY the only good brands from Germany are Mercedes and Porsche. That's it. BMW and Audi (minus the R8) are trash

Roosterboy is too stupid to understand the M5 is a leader in its class.

No Cadillac will ever touch the M5.

I second that comment because I am willing to admit that BMW did make very good and very reliable sports cars and performance cars during the 1970s, '80s, '90s and even early 2000s. Some of the most remarkable include the M1 E26 and its indirect McLaren F1 successor, plus the 850CSi E31 which utilized the F1's powerplant, as well as the M5 E34 and E39 models, and even the M3 E36 and E46 models.

^ The last remotely decent car that BMW made was the E46 M3, and it could hang with supercars both on a dragstrip and on the track.

BMW's environment went almost completely downhill with Chris Bangle, and the reason why I only say "almost" was because the 3 Series and 5 Series weren't affected at first. That ******* was the Elon Musk of his day (but worse, because at least Musk has a sense of humor and DOESN'T have "radical" political views). The funny thing is that HE IS American, born and raised... He bought the "poor" British brands Rolls-Royce and MINI with ALL of his Super PAC, Big Pharma, Hollyweird Film Industry & "New World Order" $$$ just a few months after being lowkey involved in American politics and the news industry, corrected for German exchange of course...

In fact, a white 2009 750Li F01 (shown above) was the very last car that Chris Bangle designed, SPECIFICALLY for R. Kelly. And we all know what kind of person he is, but I'll keep the topic PG-13 (ala semi-safe for work). At least Mercedes don't F around like this.

This right here is why Mercedes, like Ferrari, conducts background checks on potential buyers. Now I'm starting to think that's a good thing.

The exterior designs of the 7 Series E65 was plagiarized directly from the Chrysler 300M. Notice here that you'll see LOTS of similarities. BMW really DID put themselves down...

The plastic cardboard interiors in the modern-day 3 Series and entry-level 5 Series models.

**Let's compare the interior of a 5 Series E60...*

...to that of an E-Class W211...

**IF your first thought was, "The W211's interior shows off a authentic luxury trim, and the E60's interior reveals too much plastic," congratulations, YOU ARE A TRUE car enthusiast!!!

The E-Class has gadgets like it should in a luxury car, and all of the door trimmings are either authentic gold/silver/platinum like it should be in a luxury car. The 5 Series can only achieve such fake painting with help from Hooters and Dave & Buster's).

E- and S-Class models have resembled some close retro appearance and comfort to a 1960s Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, even Maserati. 5 and 7 Series models come nowhere near close.

Mercedes has BALLS, they know how to produce DIFFERENT types of cars for difference types of audiences and classes under a SINGLE marque, with the A-Class and V-Class models, plus the entry-level versions of the Sprinter and V-Class not even coming close to luxury! (Only the "smart car" is barely under a different marque.)

Mercedes can go from Skoda-VW-MINI-Fiat territory ALL THE WAY UP to JLR-Porsche-Maserati territory, and sometimes even compete DIRECTLY with exotics from the European Niche Three (FeLaMc). Basically, they participate in more than FOUR divisions of a single marque, proving its superiority EVEN to GM which relies on four divisions as SEPERATE marques. NOT EVEN GM OR TOYOTA has the GROIN to compete with Mercedes!

Things changed in BMW's department and mindset, appealing to party animals, Kardashians and their puppets, Beliebers, high school and college troublemakers... Mercedes does none of that.

America has leading electric car brand - Tesla. Love it or hate it, its the Coca Cola of electric cars. So you can't say American cars will never be greater than European, when there is a niche where they clearly are.

And I am not talking about how nice or not nice one specific model is compared to some other model. I know Taycan is better than Tesla Model S in many aspects. But as a complete package/ecosystem, Tesla is number one.

Exactly. If America made sedans that was even close to be being the best they would still make them. All they produce now is trucks and suv's because BMW and Benz have cornered the market.

Electric cars came in hauling Roastboy wearing panties. Nobody even wants one or even considers them cars.Before they go their 250mile range and take hours to charge back up I am already done with a 500 mile road trip.

BMW i7 beats anything Tesla will ever produce. My E39 beats anything that America will ever produce

You are as Quacky as Roastboy and as Phony as the New York Times. Hate and Plagiarize all you want. BMW rules the sedan game while the Envious Haters Drool.

Let me guess, you are part of the political group that wants speed limits on the Autobahn so Daimler can catch up to BMW

"Without the GT, the NSX/Artura/MC20/296 would never exist... they got their influence from the GT"

nonsense. The NSX has been in the making for centuries. and it was always going to be a V6. meanwhile the others were influenced by EU regulations, not because of a Ford GT...

"The Viper lapped the 'ring in 7:01.33 (correct me if I'm wrong) without a single supercharger or turbocharger. If it had a dual-clutch instead of a manual, it would do that in less than 7"

Not all transmissions are equal. If there was a Chrysler dual clutch transmission in that car, it would probably weigh 70-100kg heavier and that would slow the car down dramatically everywhere, rendering the faster shifts useless.

Stop replying to TypeF173 and Roastboy they are Haters still Drooling. BMW 7series looks nothing like a Chrysler 300(Thank God). If anything Chrysler 300 is trying to look like a Rolls Royce. McLaren F1 BMW engine with Gold in engine bay is something that TypeF173 will never Know anything about. BMW rules while TypeF173 Drools!

BMW I8 with a mini 3 cyl engine is something Eric will never know

And you are?

And you are?

My E39 beats anything that America will ever produce

You're either kidding or confused. You probably meant to say it will beat the American sedans of its day, which is only barely true. M5 E39 is a good daily driver purist car in bone stock form, but a modified one with stock internals is highly inferior to them and even the Mercedes-Benz rival.

The most powerful US sedans at the time were the Cadillac Seville Northstar and Lincoln Continental InTech. Those were released in the mid-1990s. Sure, even a 540i could beat 'em, but it wasn't as good when it came to simple engine upgrades.

3.5-Liter 300M bore & stroke: 96.0 mm x 81.0 mm (max redline: 6800 rpm)
4.3-Liter E430 bore & stroke: 89.9 mm x 84.0 mm (max redline: 6000 rpm)
4.4-Liter 540i bore & stroke: 92.0 mm x 82.7 mm (max redline: 5800 rpm)
4.6-Liter Seville bore & stroke: 93.0 mm x 84.0 mm (max redline: 6500-6700 rpm)
4.6-Liter Continental bore & stroke: 90.2 mm x 90.0 mm (max redline: 6500 rpm)
4.9-Liter M5 bore & stroke: 94.0 mm x 89.0 mm (max redline: 7000 rpm)
5.4-Liter E55 AMG bore & stroke: 97.0 mm x 92.0 mm (max redline: 6000 rpm)

The data below comes from this website: http://hpwizard.com/engine-horsepower-calculator.html

Setting the BMEP(d) rating at 11 bar for naturally aspirated cars (give or take 1 bar), I am able to show everyone these results (all rounded up to the bigger whole number even if from 0.1), each with the mean piston speed rating set at 16 m/s (give or take 1 m/s) and the volumetric efficiency set at 75% (up to 100% for M and AMG models):

🇩🇪
E430- 225rwhp/5700rpm (204awhp/5700rpm with 4MATIC)
540i- 235rwhp/5800rpm
E55 AMG- 335rwhp/5500rpm (301awhp/5500rpm with 4MATIC)
M5- 346rwhp/5700rpm

🇺🇸
300M- 223fwhp/6300rpm
Seville SLS- 240fwhp/5700rpm (262fwhp/5700rpm for STS)
Continental Cobra- 225fwhp/5300rpm (245fwhp/5300rpm as of MY1999)

These American cars have a lower-end torque curve, but a much larger engine bay (the cause of improved front legroom in traditional American sedans) even if they are front-wheel drive cars, which makes them superior to European and Asian sedans both FWD and RWD (!). This also allows for easy powertrain swapping and even conversions to RWD.

WHAT'S MORE?

Bore spacing (American sedans):
113 mm for the Chrysler 300M's 3.5 V6 (that is exactly the same as TODAY'S 5.7 TO 6.4L HEMI MOTORS!!!)
101.6 mm for the Cadillac STS' Northstar and precisely 100 mm for the Lincoln Continental's InTech

Bore spacing (German sedans):
Mercedes W210 V8 models: both at 112.5 mm
BMW E39 V8 models: both at 98 mm (today's BMW V8 is even worse at 91 mm)

Mercedes is less powerful and less sporty than BMW (typically), and Detroit is less luxurious than both on paper, but at the end of the day three of those four last longer and are designed to have extra power while retaining stock internals.

Good thing about American brands especially is that they'll EVEN offer you longer strokes from the bigger V8 or even V10 engines to soup your car up (even if the other parts of the blocks aren't compatible), which the Germans usually won't do. Better for your budget than whole crate engines. Chrysler's longest factory stroke during the E39 and W210's era was 98.55 mm (used in engines displacing 488 cubic inches, including the Viper supercar). General Motors' longest was 101.6 mm (used in engines displacing 454 cubic inches, including the 454SS super-truck) and even increased to 111.0 mm sometime in mid-2000. Ford's longest was 97.8 mm (used in engines displacing 460 cubic inches), but even the 514ci motor was available and that increased the stroke to 112.8 mm.

With no nitrous, forced induction or straight-piping ever even needed, the 300M can be boosted to 376fwhp at 6300rpm, the SLS and STS can be boosted to 379fwhp and 413fwhp both at 5700rpm (respectively), and the Coh'brinental can be boosted up to ... wait for it ... 378fwhp (at just 5300rpm)! NOT TO MENTION these cars are far more interesting to talk about than your grandma's Mercedes or your ex-girlfriend's BMW...

You'll need an aftermarket tuner to bore and stroke your BMW or Mercedes. The maximum outputs with stock internals are 450rwhp/5500rpm in an E55 AMG (not supercharged), as well as 377rwhp/5700rpm in an E39 M5 (well, still not touching 394rwhp, which is the number that BMW rated supposedly at the crank). Obviously the E430 and 540i are going to produce much less while maxed out; 351rwhp (or 319awhp) for an E430 and 267rwhp in a 540i.

You can max out your engine displacement to a 5.0L in a 540i or M5 V8, a 5.9L in a 300M V6, and a whopping 7 liters (give or take 0.5) in any of the American or Mercedes V8s.

My mom had two 750Li BMWs, she wanted to trade her E66 for an F02, and that car was a huge ****-up. Her second-gen Mazda CX-5 performs much better at the end of the day and is way less rusty and it is less of a pain in the ass!!!

Summary: America and Daimler say **** YOU to BMW and its customer service 🖕🏻🖕🏻🖕🏻

https://abc13.com/michaels-international-gentlemens-club-ford-mustang-beechnut-and-southwest-freeway-shooting/5312107/

The Man that just Spanked You,Roosterboy and TypeF173 in a BMW from any era of cars made.

you didnt do anything

The 7:01.3 lap time was BARELY a factory time. It was Road & Track that observed the time. A factory effort will typically give 10% improvement in lap times, but that really only applies to softcore track models like the ZL1 1LE Camaro, the NISMO GT-R, whatever "circuit-priority" Lamborghini and AMG GT model is out there, and RS Weissach Pack Porsche models. Such a hardcore and exclusive model like Viper ACR or McLaren Senna or Huayra BC will only give 5% improvement because they already achieve full power in the corners.

421.3/1.05 = 401.2

6:41.2 is the Viper ACR's true 'ring time, almost 11 seconds faster than a Huracan Performante and actually faster than AMG GT Black Series, Aventador SVJ, and barely slower than Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR

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discountinued every car? How long has the impala been made, corvette, mustang, charger, f150?

Nothing but Spank you and RoosterJokeboy in a BMW!

"Nobody wants them" the c8 corvette was on backorder for so long long that you had to wait a year for yours because EVERYONE wanted one, what bmw did that?

no bmw will "spank" a czinger, a SCG a ZR1, a Viper, or a Ford Gt, Further down. No bmw will accelerate faster than a plaid

BMW M5 E39 1/4 mile 13.1 s @ 109.4 mph?

That's Ford Focus RS territory? WTF are you ON? Spanking what?😂🤦

Impala is Discontinued along with almost every other sedan ****marica produced because they are Junk that Nobody wants

GM still has:

In America+Canada- Cadillac CT4 and CT5 (D and E segments)... kinda more the indirect successors to Chevy's Malibu and Impala (in that respective order; CT4=RWD Malibu, and CT5=RWD Impala) than direct successors to ATS and CTS btw...because pricing-wise and demographic-wise Cadillac has wanted to become the new Pontiac (let alone Chevy)

In Mexico- Chevy Aveo/Onix/Cavalier (A, B and C segments)... equivalents to a "Spark sedan", a Sonic sedan, and a Cruze sedan

In Europe- Buick Regal (kinda the equivalent to CT4, only with front wheel drive)

In China- Buick LaCrosse (kinda the equivalent to CT5, only with front wheel drive), Cadillac CT6 (successor to the Caprice/Roadmaster/Fleetwood of the '90s)

Junk? Talk about premium quality ESPECIALLY in the high-end trims?! GM's got: Premier, SS and Z[xx] for Chevy, Avenir and AT4/Denali for Buick-GMC, Luxury, Premium Luxury, Sport, V-Series/Blackwing for Cadillac!!!

Quality is identical to that of an Audi, BMW, Mercedes at a slashed-in-¼ (sometimes even ½) of that German car's base price... mainly because the Buicks and Cadillacs are built in UAW plants.

If a CT5 was built in the same plant as a 5 Series, it would cost as much as a 7 Series. Base engine is a 236hp 350T engine displacing 2.0L, the only way for a 5 Series to ever even start at less than $40K new is to offer a 1.0L 3-cylinder engine making 50 depressed "smiles" per gallon.

Mercedes allows 50-100 features to be loaded as options as opposed to BMW which only allows 5-20 features, depending on the model. AND also Mercedes has TWO UAW plants...yep, even Lexus has at least one. Not BMW though.

$36K CT5 350T >> $53K 530i in both price AND performance

36x2 = $72K, Cadillac really competes with Maserati and the Black Label division of Lincoln, while marketed as a BMW competitor. Buick competes with Alfa Romeo and bare-bones Lincoln, while being "cross-shopped" constantly with Subaru and Mazda by lazy car non-enthusiasts...

AMERICAN LUXURY + ACURA & LEXUS = Las Vegas hotels, Denny's, Cheesecake Factory, Panda Express and sushi restaurants

USDM "GERMAN LUXURY" & INFINITI = Walmart/Target, McDonald's/Starbucks, Taco Bell/Chipotle, pizza restaurants

That's exactly Right!Junk RoosterRoasted boy in a Cadillac. The cts-v was stopped produced and so will this ct5 blackbucket be while the M5 continues to go for Infinity.Roastedboy back on his Knees in a soon to be discontinued ct5 coalbucket!

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If Murica is such a bad country, how come 90% of foreigners (typically 2nd or 3rd world) migrate here? For a better life. America has more QUALITY above minimum wage jobs for our youth (16 to 25 year olds), better healthcare quality (shorter waiting times because we don't have that crap universal healthcare plan), and without America's leading CEOs Steve Jobs and Bill Gates our phones and computers would NEVER EXIST...

Do Canada, Britain, even Japan have what America got?? Those tech CEOs? NOPE. Britain's only tech CEO is a pathetic OnlyFans founder slug. Japan's age of consent is 13, India's is 11... UK and US have it all at 16 and 18, federal wise... because we're all more mature. You seriously think a POS Jaguar is better than Cadillac? (Jaguar is not British anymore, only barely... Indian ownership + Land Rover's gotten progressively worse thanks to that lazy German influence)

Germany, everything's gotta be SUPER QUIET on a Sunday...

American cars have their flaws. EVERY automaker has good and bad cars, even BMW and Nissan. The Chevy Onix and Cruze are HUGE pos's, same with the 4-cylinder Iron Duke Camaros of the 1980s, and that garbage Vega and its Monza cousin.

MOST of today's Chevys are on par with at least Peugeot, Renault, VW.

Fords are EVEN BETTER, some of the high end trims like those of the Ranger, Bronco and Explorer, and especially F-150 and Expedition EASILY PASS as luxury...

Dodge hasn't made a single mistake with their RWD cars since late 2014.

ANY reputation that BMW (especially the pos 2, 3, 4 and 5 Series models) ever had was ruined by iPhone/Twitter-addicted spandex-wearing gold diggers, OnlyFans models and young gossipers, and their typically shirtless douchebag brothers and cousins.

Caddi, Buick and Benz are for tradwives and businessmen

What crappy bmw do you have

BMW 3series has been in such demand that you might not even be able to get one if you had the cash to buy it straight out.

Loser Shwingbob back on his Knees with RoosterRoastedboy and TypeF173 blowing me before and after I Dust their Cheap Chickenshit ****murica auto!

That's chip shortage. None are on backorder . Your "luxury" won't even come with a touchscreen or android auto becuase of chip shortage. This will be added as a update in the future so makes no sense how it's affected by chip shortage

You will dust it with what, what bmw do you have? An issetta? An i3?

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E39's are cheap?😂🤦

Anyone that conducts background checks on their buyers will never sell your Phony ass anything. Roastboy still Drooling with the rest of the Chickenshit ****murica auto Losers!

statistically US is 33rd in the world in police killings not "Leading the way"

Typical American brainwashed by Murican "journalists", activist professors and pharma ****s who think they know it all

*not you of course, and of course Eric is trolling with his American keyboard on an American made cell phone

On a serious note, I really, really doubt he knows anything about an E39, let alone owns one...

the c8 has won the Performance Car of the Year in Japan, 2020 Motor Trend Car of the Year award, eNVy Award As Best Premium Sports Car, North American Car of the Year in 2020, ALG Redesign of the Year award, Ward's Auto Best Interior Award and a 10Best Interiors Award.

The m5 cs has only won the Evo's Car Of The Year. Thats it.

meant to thumbs up sorry

You're good lol

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What color was the Corvette convertible and what engine did you option it with?

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You're full of shit

He's ****ing batshit crazy!😂

Dodge is just another BMW plagiarizing piece of junk that copied basically an entire front end off BMW. Dodge doesnt make mistakes it is a Mistake.

No ****murica garbage cars are and so are you

America and Korea: (generally) BUILDS I4'S, I6'S AND V6'S BASED ON V8 BLOCKS

Germany and Japan: BUILDS V8'S BASED ON V6, I6 AND I4 BLOCKS

You should know by now that the 5.0 and 5.7 Toyota V8 engines are the same 3.5 and 4.0 V6 with the same bore and/or stroke design... and the 5.6 Nissan is the same as a slightly bored out variant of a 4.0 V6 with the same stroke..

Is a US-assembled BMW shittier or is a German- or Chinese-assembled Buick shittier?

Tundra 5.7/3.5T and Titan 5.6 weigh close to 6000 lbs even with the standard 4x2 in the same crew cab configuration as a 5000 lb F-150 5.0 or 3.5T... because of all that engine stuffing cushions and the plastic firings covering the most frontal of the two cylinders... they're closer to an F-250 or even exceed that in curb weight

The V8s made by Detroit are natural and authentic and are EASILY covered by American truck hoods...

Japan ONLY makes FAKE V8s, hence why a Lexus IS500F and a Lexus ES350F have the same ungoverned top speed because a Toyota product (not including Supra or LFA) will castrate its transmission and blow up its engine entirely at speeds past 170 mph! A V8 or TTV6 Tundra is also slower than a TTV6 (2.7, not 3.5) F-150.

An Infiniti Q50/60 Red Sport or a Nissan Z or GT-R would NEVER have been a success with a 5.6 V8 ... the Q70 came with it and that car sucked ass dude, V8 or V6. I can go on HOURS AND HOURS about WHY the Japanese do not offer crate engines, especially those with 8 cylinders...

Hey I own a 1998 BMW 530iA and it has the GM transmission

pardon my mistake it is a 528iA

Sorry, meant to like

I'm talking about the 2nd gen NSX vs 2nd gen GT

Light blue with a 327

You want to put money down that I do not own an E39?That is if your going out of business ****murica auto loving ass has any money!

As someone else has said, you do know your favorite BMW SAVs (SUVs) are assembled in the Bible Belt in America... same with Mercedes, Honda/Acura, even some Toyota/Lexus, and also ESPECIALLY VOLVO! 🤩

VW Golf Wagon, Passat and Atlas are all assembled in the US, I believe Jetta is too!🥰

Now on the other hand, the Buick Regal, LaCrosse, Chevy Malibu, Impala, Cadillac XTS of the 2010s/20s all use a German platform. The Cadillac ATS/CT4, CTS/CT5, 6G Chevy Camaro use an evolutionized variant of the Australian platform used in the Caprice/Commodore/5G Camaro...

S197 and S550 Mustang still use a British platform from 1998/9...

Challenger, Charger and 300 an evolutionized French platform from 1988 (remember Renault and Eagle, and their strange "FWD" longitudinal sedans? THOSE PAVED WAY for the Dodge Monaco and the Dodge Intrepid and their siblings), only the LX comes with some outsourced German parts.

The LX platform is just a fancier version of the LH/last gen "B-Body" with the one major difference being RWD longitudinal vs FWD longitudinal, both of which allow for the same powertrains to fit... 3.5 V6 in the Intrepid has the same bore spacing as a Pentastar and a Hemi today!

BMW sold Land Rover DIRECTLY to Ford! Older Land Rover (and some automatic BMWs) use GM transmissions as well

Even before BMW bought Rolls-Royce, that brand's ultra luxury cars came with the 6.8L V8 which, btw, was one of the bigger Ford "small block" engines!

If anything, the Brits are the WORST at coming up with something original. Aston Martin and Jaguar aside, they really used American engines. Aston Martin and Jaguar also used Chrysler and GM transmissions, respectively. Bentley and Rolls-Royce stuck a Ford Y-Block derived motor into their cars for DECADES.

Yes a few BMW cars had GM transmissions but only to meet customer demand for their cars while ZF was down for a few months.

"A factory effort will typically give 10% improvement in lap times"
"6:41.2 is the Viper ACR's true 'ring time, almost 11 seconds faster than a Huracan Performante and actually faster than AMG GT Black Series, Aventador SVJ, and barely slower than Porsche 911 GT2 RS MR"

pure nonsense. wow.

First of all, there is a time difference between factory effort and compared to a couple laps from Sport Auto. 10%??? that's 40+ seconds for a 7 minute lap. 40 seconds??? The normal difference between Sport Auto and factory attempts were between 9-15s, still much less than the 20s or 40+s you proposed.

Secondly, this Viper ACR time, they had multiple days of testing, set-up changes and runs, using 2 Viper ACRs. DEFINITELY a much better effort than what Sport Auto gets. There won't be 10s of improvement let alone 20 seconds.

And besides, with the same driver behind the wheel including AMERICAN publications, the Porsche gt2RS went faster than the ACR on EVERY track. What makes you think this ACR will suddenly beat a GT2RS by several seconds at the ring?
https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/gl4hart6v1ij

I do Not have a favorite SUV. Really do Not like them that much. Sits high,guzzles gas.I am sedan and sports car man.

Your full of Shit, likely in a Chickenshit ****murica piece of Junk!

Why are you always in such bad mood?

You're*

You're*

Just an example of German automakers being dictators

https://boston.cbslocal.com/2022/05/13/mercedes-benz-recall-brakes/

I am in an excellent mood. How come you are editing what YOU do Not agree with and trying to push off pansy electric companies such as Tesla?

That's normal. In a way the 812 is like a 3x more expensive Corvette C7. Big engine in the front, rear wheel drive, too much wheelspin, gets off the ground only when it wants to.

So, your saying the BMW is better? More cup holders too! LOL!

I never said that. They're very different in their own aspect. The M5 just happens to have much more grip and gets off the line quicker which, obviously, helps in a drag race. But you will never find a person who would cross shop between these two cars.
I mean how many manufacturers offer a front engine N/A V12 that revs up to 8500 RPM?

Not Aston Martins! Ahaha!

Valkyrie accepted.

Exactly. Also it's just a known that that FR, regardless of power, will always only really start to hook up after a while. Unless the driver in the AWD or mid engine setup is sleeping. LMAO

Yeah I get that. But she's heavy man!

On another note, I don't believe I know what your favourite production hypercar is? It's not the Speedtail?

So, what is it?🤔

If I had to choose, probably the McLaren F1. I don't really care much about cars I'll 1. never drive and 2. never be able to afford. Lmao

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buy doge coin to fund your hypercar spending

812 Superfast: typical weight range based on magazines and private owner measurements is 1750-1825kg, 1825-1900 with driver... rated at 800ps but most are rated between 760-840ps depending on octane rating (91-94)

M5 CS: typical weight based on magazines and private owner measurements is 1900-1950kg, 1975-2025 with driver... rated at peak 665ps (average 635ps according to BMW because of torque curve based on turbos) but most are rated between 630-700ps depending on octane rating (91-94)

Ignore those indoctrinating YouTubers and paid press magazine tests that convince you an M5 (typically on ethanol gas or race gas, and very likely a prototype or a press car... but otherwise extremely modified) is as fast as a Maserati MC20, let alone ANY modern Ferrari on either a strip or a track.

Assuming no rollout, an 812SF does 10.6sec@141mph and an M5CS does 11.2sec@126mph... the (semi)good thing is that AWD allows for extra grip at launch but past 30mph an M5CS is a slug

Even Corvette C8 Stingray and Camaro SS 1LE > base model M5. The Z06-7 and ZL1-LE versions will absolutely beat the M5 CS on the track.

Forget about the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing, it "officially" goes against M3 Competition (price-wise) only to beat M5 Competition and even M8 Competition Gran Coupe in 99% of all acceleration and road-course stats.

Also, when was the last time BMW ever officially tracked their cars at the 'ring? AMG and Porsche still do it to this day!!!

BMW=BULLSHIT

Tesla Model S Plaid is worse at cornering than a shitty-at-track Hellcat and still beat an M5

if you remove about 5 sec to get the non full nurburgring time it does about a 7:30.45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em4I4V-AvBo&t=1s

only 1 second behind a m5cs in a car with MUCH less downforce

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BMW doesn't drive factory laps because they would wipe the floor with the competition. The M2 CS does a 7:42, the M4 Competition xDrive did 7:28 and the M5 CS is just barely slower than that at sport auto. Imagine if they put a factory driver behind the wheels of them and gave them more than one try. I'd imagine the M2 will manage a 7:29 and the M4 and M5 will probably hit 7:15 and 7:17 respectively which is comparable to a Camaro ZL1 1LE!!

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Only except the German mags consistently use racing or ethanol gas in M cars as they are constantly paid by BMW to make their cars "look" faster than AMG which are then appearing to look "slower"

To be honest, yes, AMG does the same thing, they put racing gas in their cars from the GT R/Black models to the 63 S. But they are more lenient with the magazine tests than BMW. Porsche, however, uses just premium unleaded gas on the GT models when testing them at the track.

When BMW finds out about the "poor" results that American and Aussie mags get in their M cars, they force them to "try again"...

M4 COMPETITION at 7:15??? Especially when an F8 Tributo, Aventador SVJ or 765LT can barely crack 6:5x in a magazine test? Not even an NSX Type S does that 7:15 crap theory you're spreading out of your processed-foodbrain (and yes, the NSX-TS is slower than a CT5-V Blackwing on both strip and circuit). Maybe a CSL but even then it'll require race gas and a set of semi-slicks

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There are infinitely more murican cars worth more than your shitty base model high mileage bmw

1969 Ford Mustang Boss 429 did 12.9 quartermile bone stock, BMW M5 E39 only did 13.1 (a slushbox E55 AMG did 13.3 with "45" hp less!). And it's worth the same as the 2005 Ford GT @$500K. Not even a Murcielago from Lambo, or a 575, 599 or 612 from Ferrari is worth half the price of a Boss 429 or a fully mint Chevelle SS 454...

It LITERALLY TOOK BMW 35 YEARS TO BEAT AN OLD MUSTANG, or really any muscle car in general. The E60 M5 that came out in 2004. Even then, Mercedes -had- HAS been producing 11sec and 12sec cars straight from the factory SINCE THE NINETIES!!!

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CT5-V Black is better value for all out track performance than M5 or M5 CS, but the M5/ M5 CS Is a more usefull and a better all season car than CT5-V (Mostly in part due to AWD).

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what bmw do you have? none

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you have a 3 sires? not even a m3 or else you would've said. BMW X3, X3M, X4, X4M, X5, X5M, X6, X6M, and X7 are all produced in the United States btw.

Second that!

US and UAW plants, explained here:

https://fastestlaps.com/articles/disadvantage-of-building-cars-at-a-union-plant

https://fastestlaps.com/articles/most-cars-will-always-be-more-expensive-than-union-made-cars

Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche

To summarize from both of the articles I have written, UAW and non-UAW cars may be comparable in price if they are 4-cylinder SUVs and/or non-luxury vehicles, but the AMGs, Ms, RSes etc would be slashed to Blackwing level — Hellcat level at worst and Lexus F level at best — if built at UAW union plants

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Buddy I don't understand what is with you and all this D (knee) talk lol what are you gay

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Lol, what the Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing is BARELY a "muscle car"... it's a LUXURY SPORTS SEDAN. The only muscle cars are Charger, Challenger, Mustang (albeit barely), that's it.

Even the Camaro isn't a muscle car anymore, the 1LE variants are proof that it's fully capable on the track; the Mach 1 and Shelby GT500 versions of the Mustang represent almost a middle ground between track and muscle, 60:40 ratio.

The (non-1LE) SS and ZL1 versions are grand tourers just like the BMW M850i and M8 plus the Mercedes-AMG GT.

The Mustang GT is a poor man's version of the Lexus RC F (and the M3 and C63 AMG coupes of two generations ago), not quite a grand tourer but still a sports muscle car. To be honest the RC F is halfway fully loaded at its base price, and if it was built at a union plant it would not even cost $50K...

I'd say the M5 CS should do a 7:15. It only had Pirelli P Zeros in the sport auto test and still managed a 911 Carrera S time which most definitely is impressive. I can definitely see it in a league with the old 991 Turbo S when you put Cup 2 tires on it.

As for the M4 Competition, let's face it. Even on a twisty track it defeated an Aston Martin Vantage F1 AND an Alfa Giulia GTAm. Sure it's fat and big for its class but they managed to make a miracle come true with this car.

Also it's almost rivaling Ferrari 458 Speciale in laptimes. I don't think it's too unrealistic.

Newer tire technology, plus the current gen M4 came out some 3-5 years after Vantage and Giulia... the 458S is pretty much almost 10 years old

The reason why the M5 CS is so fast for its class is because of the use of racing seats + the removal of a middle seat. Some Euro-spec M5 CS are equipped with a "tiny" roll cage...

a 7:15 is absolutely insane, thats faster than a 991.1 GT3RS

Yes that would be insane but there's no chance in hell that the M5 CS will do a 7:15 lap at the Nurb. With Cup2R's you potentially would get a 7:23/7:24 lap at best...

The M5 CS and CT5 BW both with the best tire options were tested on 93 octane gas at the VIR and the CT5 BW was proven to be faster on the VIR track. For acceleration stats they covered up the fact that they were using 100+ octane in the M5 (like usual in turbocharged Euro cars). Even the CT4 BW laps times in the middle ground between the slightly older M5 Competition and the slightly newer M3 Competition.

We all know for sure neither Cadillac model is going to do 7:15 at the ring. Maybe the M5CS will do better than the Tesla Plaid which does the ring in 7:28 to 7:30

Germany's north loop lap tests really unironically show that all wheel drive and front wheel drive cars are superior on that track compared to rear wheel drive cars (though there are few exceptions like Viper ACR, 911 GT and AMG GT Black, but those are the ultra exclusive supercars that not everyone gets to drive), thanks to the unilateral cornering and we see that hot hatches are proof of my statement! CT5 BW should only be 1 or 2 seconds slower on that track than M5 CS due to the rear wheel drive system

The VIR track prioritizes rear wheel drive cars as it is basically a straight line track (semi-dragstrip) mixed with a few twists

9000

The lap times at VIR conducted by Car&Driver are a crock of shit and should never be used as a benchmark eg. a 2022 Porsche GT3 6.2 sec faster than a Performante? yeah right 😂

Whether you think the GT3 was stock or not, or whether the Performante driver was an idiot or not, I think we all can agree that C&D had the Hellcat slower than an SS and a GT and on par with an RC F on most of its tracks, including the VIR

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Never said it was a "muscle car" .

Well then what are these comments supposed to mean?

Your Chickenshit ct5 has never been tracked at the Ring because it is not as good as M5.

There is so much more to a car than an acceleration number and if your wimpy Chickenshit "muscle car" isn't faster than that you better go eat your Wheaties

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CT5-V BW = 1.04 G https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-first-test-review/

M5 CS = 1.04 G https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-bmw-m5-cs-first-test-review/

E63 S Wagon (which does better than its sedan variant due to its manufacturer-rated 49:51 weight distribution vs 53:47) = 0.98 G https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-audi-rs6-avant-mercedes-amg-e63-s-porsche-panamera-turbo-s-sport-turismo-comparison-test-review/

Charger Hellcat = 0.94 G, and that's just with full-size exterior dimensions, with the CT5, 5 Series and E-Class all being midsize https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2021-dodge-charger-hellcat-redeye-first-test-review/

Let's compare Hellcat to M760Li, a fellow full-sizer... 0.94G but with AWD (the S65 AMG with RWD did 0.92G) https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2017-bmw-m760i-xdrive-first-test-review/

Figure 8 results: 24.7 sec for M760Li, 24.8 for Hellcat, 24.9 sec for S65 AMG (full-size cars)

Figure 8 results: 23.2 for M5 CS, 23.4 for CT5-V BW, a whopping 24.2 for E63 S AMG (midsize cars)

American sedans (and the only real 2-door muscle car left, the Challenger) generally adopt moderate chassis technology, but the iconic Camaro, Corvette, Mustang sports cars are a whole different story, they're almost as advanced as anything from Italy and McLaren even! SS 1LE did the figure 8 in 23.0 sec flat, which is quicker than MOST cars

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491111

Even VERY PRO BMW forum applauded SS 1LE, basically a baby ZL1

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1224938&page=2 (1.01 G vs 1.00 G skidpad)

If the Challenger and Charger adopted a much newer platform from, say, Maserati, the Hellcat twins would be closer to 1.06 G skidpad and 23.5 sec Figure 8

Regardless, EVERY Widebody variant Challenger and Charger with the 6.4 or Hellcat engine is faster and handles/corners slightly better than a Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Gallardo 5.0, Mark 1 Nissan GT-R (minus the V-Spec variant) on a vast majority of tracks. F430 is a 2004 car, Gallardo a 2003 car, GT-R a 2007 car. These cars came from that same era and the origins of the platform actually trace back EVEN EARLIER (2002/1998 for the mixed W211/W220 suspension system, 1992 for the LH platform it's based on, 1988 Eagle Premier which paved way for this very family tree)!

And yet somehow the Panamera Turbo S with 300kg of extra weight managed a 7:25 and the Jaguar XE SV did a 7:23 while both are being slower in almost every aspect. It would be foolish to believe the CS isn't capable to beat those numbers

Porsche comes with a naturally better chassis than anything BMW or Mercedes makes, the Panamera is pretty much the Viper of 4-door sedans.

BMW and Mercedes need to commit secret conspiracies to add higher octane than what's recommended and sometimes even reduce a bit of weight and add a roll cage in order to get "better" lap times. They're nowhere as bad as the Japanese though, which need PJ1 TrackBite glue even on their non-factory semi-slicks that they falsely advertise as the "factory summer tire option" (CivicGate)

https://automobile.fandom.com/wiki/Octane_rating

2020 M340i, '02 530i (highest rated car ever made when came out)with euro headlights and M5 front bumper,2018 750i xdrive

BMW made very good cars back then, and I still like the M5 CS and M8 Competition. However, they're very overrated and their fanbase is far more cultlike than that of Mercedes, Porsche, even Audi (which, contrary to popular belief isn't a BMW competitor, but more of a DS/Volvo one). To quote Jesskoen,...:

i agree about BMW, they just known by everyone and overrated and people think its the fastest just like Bugatti fans also,

https://fastestlaps.com/articles/4-sports-cars-that-only-stupid-immature-people-buy

E39 M5 could keep up with Ferrari F355, and even 360 Modena in some cases. F90 M5 can't even keep up with Ferrari Portofino M, the Prancing Horse's ENTRY-LEVEL car, and you need the Competition or CS version to even keep up with a 458; the base M5 is barely faster than a 430.

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Only thing holding the CT5-V and Hellcat back from beating German sedans on most road courses is their humongous engine displacements. Most twisty tracks are designed for rear/mid/front-mid-engine cars and also 4x4 cars.

A front-engine, rear-wheel-drive sedan needs to displace less than a 5.0L V8 or 4.0L 6-cylinder and preferably adopt a turbocharging system in order to dominate a race track. The inertia is REALLY bad with managing a 6.0L+ car like a Blackwing or Hellcat. Why do you think Mercedes swapped the 6.2L V8 for a 4.0TT motor for the AMG C63 and the halo grand touring sports car (AMG GT, formerly "SLS AMG")?

If you think about it, it's pretty much the equivalent of hiring an "obese" model at Victoria's Secret or Hooters, even if she has all the upper-body and lower-body muscles to make up for the heavy weight. Too much engine in the same chassis and exterior design car = not enough, or reduced handling, and especially more prone to imbalance...

Germans are superior in terms of agility and smoothness. But Americans are superior in durability!

Let's get the facts right shall we. Firstly the Panamera had bespoke Cup2's and was driven by Lars Kern so even with the extra weight it was always going to be a relatively fast lap. Secondly the Jaguar XE SV had Cup2R's and was driven by Vincent Radermecker who has done thousands of lap at the Nurb. You need to pay attention to the driver and the tyres used because that makes a significant difference but that doesn't equate to a 7:15 lap for the M5 CS...

You are comparing a Hellcat to a full size M760li Luxury sedan and it doesn't even win on a figure 8? Doesn't even pull more g?

Because why not? the Charger? it IS a full-size sedan. 120" wheelbase, 200" overall length, 4800 lb curb weight with a driver and some groceries

the only reason why it doesn't (directly) compete with M760Li is because of price and badge, that's it. it doesn't necessarily compete with CT5-V or even CT6-V Blackwing either.

However, Charger and V-Series cars all are built at union plants which makes them cheaper, the UAW isn't very well known for designing cars with luxurious interiors unless it's a high-end SUV...

$85,695 MSRP Dodge muscle car assembled in Canada by UAW = $171,390 MSRP BMW luxury car handcrafted with gadgets and technology in Germany; absolutely NO 6.0L+ European, let alone German car can get away with costing "just" $85K (the 2007-2015 "63"-badged cars by AMG were the exception, not the rule)...

$83,995 MSRP Cadillac premium car handcrafted by one man in USA with influence from UAW = anywhere between $125,990 and $167,990 MSRP BMW premium car (varying on import/export taxes)... the Blackwing leans more CS M5 than Competition M5 (let alone M3)

Quoting myself on this page: https://fastestlaps.com/models/cadillac-escalade-v

Due to being built in a union plant, the [Mercedes-]AMG [GLS63] is cheaper than both the Alpina [XB7] and [Maserati Levante] Trofeo, and at the same time, more luxurious and comfortable than both as well. Same can be said about this [Cadillac Escalade] V-Series truck.

Not overrated. Ferrari is a beautiful car, I have always loved them,but how many people can buy one and start driving it everyday. You cannot even get a new Rari for under $220k. BMW is best because they can be daily drivers while also being faster than many sports cars and more comfortable.

Ferraris are handcrafted, while BMWs are generally assembled (the full-fat M models with I6 and V8 engines are handcrafted however). The M5 CS in GERMANY is only about 20-50k euros off a Roma, and the same will apply to the M4 CSL

To be honest AND to be clear, I am NOT 100% defending American cars or automakers. They have a lot of shit to work on.

I don't even like American cars for the most part. Really just the V8/turbo-6 trucks and high-performance cars. My Mazda CX-5 runs very smoothly and gives that BMW vibe in terms of ride quality as well as exterior design.

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I find most "economy" American cars to be too unattractive for my need. I personally find the Honda Civic and Toyota Corolla far more attractive and relatable to a hot chick I find attractive (looks and personality wise) than a Chevy Cruze or Ford Focus. The Cruze is too sensitive to compete in the higher performance game and the Focus is a bit too chic (at least better than the previous gen one which gave a bit of a college soyboy vibe). Also, the Dodge-Fiat "Dart" really ****ing sucks ass and I'd rather be attracted to a guy (which I am not) than be caught dead driving that POS

The Nissan Sentra is pretty nice looking, but that CVT really holds me back from even remotely dreaming of owning one. Ugly on the inside just like a typical Mitsubishi or low-end Renault

If compact cars were girls, so be that

For me, really I'd choose a Hyundai Elantra N, a Kia Stinger GT, or a Mazda 3 Turbo over anything American that has a 4-cylinder or V6... if I had to choose between a new Subaru WRX and a Dodge Charger V6 or even a 5.7, my bet would be on the WRX even though it's a bit too "feminine" (on paper) for my need... the only reason why the 5.7 gets so much respect is because it has a V8...

An Acura TLX Type S will do better than both the Lexus IS 500 F Sport Performance and a Dodge Charger Scat Pack Widebody on 99% of road courses. The Infiniti Q50 Red Sport 400 doesn't even come close as it's a 400hp engine in a 300hp chassis. The Genesis G70 3.3T and G80 3.5T both are alright, but I'd still rather take the Elantra and Stinger.

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I can sorta agree that the Charger isn't a luxury car. However, the 300 is. There is no Hellcat version of the 300, however the 5.7 Eagle, 6.1 ESF, 6.4 Apache, 6.2 Hellcat, 7.0 Hellephant all share the same block. There are even guys (and possibly gals?) who swap those 7.0 Hellephants into their 300s!

I guess you could argue that the Jailbreak is more of a luxurious Redeye.

Here's the interior of a Hellcat Jailbreak Charger

versus an M760 Final Edition

and an S65 AMG Final Edition

and even a Flying Spur W12

Also, the VW Phaeton and Hyundai Equus+Kia K900 were luxury cars even if they weren't wearing a "luxury badge"

It rides more comfortably than both Maserati sedans (Ghibli and Quattroporte) — the Charger!!!

If we have to get super-technical, then "luxury" is only a matter of either a whole marque or a higher 'niche' end of the marque (as is the case with Volkswagen and soon Mazda's cars). As an American, and not a European, and also as someone who is NOT materialistic and influenced by the Hollywood-Kardashian 🐂💩, I couldn't care LESS about "luxury".

If the Charger is a full-size car, it's a full-size car. PERIOD. It may be a 5 Series competitor equipment level wise, but size wise it competes with the 7. No exceptions. Size matters more than equipment at least in America😏😏 even the Kia K900 and Acura RLX compete with the 7 Series

RWD Charger Hellcat is 4600 lbs, RWD AMG S65 is 4800 lbs, AWD S63 is 4700 lbs, AWD M760Li is 5000 lbs, AWD Alpina B7 is 4800 lbs, current gen Flying Spur V8 and W12 short wheelbase are at a minimum of 5000 lbs and 5200 lbs due to aluminum body design, most displacing 6.0L+ and forced induction... (turbo V8s displace 4.0-4.4L)

If you remove the front driveshaft that takes 100 to 300 lbs off depending on how tough the chassis is... go figure 4700 lbs for the M760 and 4800 for the W12 Bentley! 4400 lbs for S63 and 4600 lbs for V8 Bentley! EQUAL TO OR LIGHTER THAN CHARGER! (S560/580 and S63 AMG, plus BMW 750i and Alpina B7 are the same weight, if they had RWD, as Charger Scat Pack)

Audi S8 is at 5100 lbs with mild hybrid system, Maserati Quattroporte Trofeo is at 4600 lbs (mainly due to the gadgets that make it a Maserati edit—found out it weighs 4400 lbs), Jaguar XJR575 is at 4200 lbs, Cadillac CT6-V Blackwing at 4500 lbs! TWO of those have AWD. -300 lbs = ~4800 lbs for Audi and 4200 lbs for Cadillac, minus electric motor = 4600 or even 4500 lbs for Audi!!!

SOME in the full-size "luxury" segment are lighter than the Hellcat as well!!!

American cars tend to be equal to or more expensive than European competitors in Europe anyway, "luxury" or not ;)

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"hand made" - they made the body panels and shell by hand too? Pressed the steel panels by hand, made all the plastics by hand etc?

There is no such thing as "hand made" when it comes to making cars. There is just varying degree of automation. Obviously, E34 was mass produced car and was only (mostly) assembled by hand, like any other car since ages ago. In 1990s there was already plenty of automatization on car production lines, I can imagine.

Have you seen a SINGLE car from ANY of these following marques make it to this list?:

1) Cadillac
2) Lincoln
3) Lexus
4) Acura
5) Chrysler

ANY??

And I left Infiniti out on purpose because we all know their designing team combines its ultra-chic (feminine) designs and outdated automatic transmissions with seats and a touchscreen from a Mexican-market Renault...

Japan does have their own equivalent to Break My Wallet... :)))

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/infiniti-will-be-dead-by-2030-heres-why/

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So much for plagiarizing BMW designs...

E34 looks a lot like XF Falcon...

THANK GOD that American professors have standards against plagiarism

Eric 2d ago @hostboy

Ford is a worthless piece of Shit that rides like Shit,Looks like Shit and has never beat anything that BMW has made. There is so much more to a car than an acceleration number and if your wimpy Chickenshit "muscle car" isn't faster than that you better go eat your Wheaties. Dinan E39 will smoke almost anything a Henry Ford piece of Shit has ever produced and do it with better ride,handling and luxury,not to mention four doors.These wimpy "muscle" cars are only half of a car with two doors.

Germans have never made a single most reliable car, and my mom used to have a couple of BMW 7 Series and an old Mercedes E-Class

He forgets Dinan actually IS a US engineering/tuning firm? How anyone can be so ****ing clueless to basics, is quite beyond me? Then he trash talks the United States of America? FK him off, quite obviously a troll. No oxygen, no fire!🤦

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I respect the Mercedes-AMG GT (and its British-influenced SLS and SLR predecessors), I respect the Porsche 911, and I respect the Audi R8. Those are the only German cars that deserve respect.

The best that BMW makes is not even close to the levels of the top trim versions of the GT (R Pro and Black Series), 911 (GT3/RS, GT2 RS, Turbo S), and R8 (V10 Performance). And even if they were to beat supercars on the track, they're usually 3-4 years late. They force mags and YouTubers to fudge numbers in most tests and videos.

The only reason why BMW makes some "semi-track special" versions of their M2, M3, M4 and M5 is because their "Competition" versions are constantly getting punked by "S" versions of Mercedes-AMG and "Blackwing" versions of Cadillac-V in real-world tests on streets, strips and tracks alike.

Forget about the Hellcat, you can even install simple 50-state-legal aftermarket parts for less than $10,000 including taxes and shipping/handling fees into a "modest" 5.7 or 6.4 Hemi and make at least 600 hp.

BMWs need a plastic load of American or Japanese made parts installed in order to "dominate" in performance stats, and even then they become much slower and weaker overtime (see: TeslaGate)...

When was the last time BMW partaked in F1? Mercedes-AMG still does it. Do they even participate in LMP still? No, that's Porsche. Aston Martin is a member of both, and Ferrari is the KING of F1 racers.

BMW only got into NASCAR because of Toyota and their dumbass "Supra", and even then just barely. Today's Supra is nothing like yesterday's; at least the old one could even keep up with Italian and German supercars of the '90s...

Cadillac and Acura are not even popular in Europe and they still participate in the LMP seasons!!!

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Cadillac for sale at BMW dealership!

https://www.eastbaybmw.com/inventory/used-2018-cadillac-ct6-platinum-awd-awd-sedan-1g6kn5r60ju107836

If you're over 16 and still saying "x rules, x drools" in public, people are going to look at you as immature...

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TypeF173 likes Mercedes and VW if anything. I know him very well, he is no Americar fanboy.

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Here's an example of a BMW for sale at Cadillac...

https://www.radleycadillac.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=used&make=BMW&model=530i+xDrive

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'WHITE LIAR'!!!! (no racial pun intended) Dinan had NOTHING to do with Porsche or Lamborghini... JUST BMW

Can't even find a source to back your ficticious quote up... I googled and there appeared no results...

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Not everyone has access to mags, please provide us a scan after you upload it to ibb.co

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Everyone has a given name and all names have a definition. My name means healer. There is only one Cosimo here on this site, and nobody unironically likes him.

I was just about to say, they ARE the same person

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Toyota's website says otherwise https://toyotagazooracing.com/gr/supra/nascar/

BMW's last production supercar: 1981 M1 (and was much slower than the Countach and 930 911 Turbo)
Audi's last production supercar: they still make the R8
Mercedes' last production supercar: well, technically the GT is a sports car but the R and Black versions define it as a true supercar

BMW's last 3rd-party work on a hypercar was McLaren F1. It got beaten by VW's Bugatti Veyron/Chiron which is from its 1st-party. Mercedes TO THIS DAY works on Pagani Zonda (later known as Huayra and C10) from a 2nd-party project.

McLaren F1 had SEVERAL FLAWS, it wasn't good on the track unless you opted for the HDF or LM package, it still lost to a Bugatti EB110 in most drag races and was equal to a Jaguar XJ220 in various roll races. Even Porsche 911 GT2 and Ferrari F40 occasionally beat it on the track. It's a good car with many bad qualities and traits, it's just impossible to control an F1 unless you're Gordon Murray or Michael Schumacher.

NEITHER BMW NOR AUDI ever produced a production hypercar. Mercedes did, twice—CLK GTR and AMG ONE. Porsche even made 959, 911 GT1, Carrera GT, and 918.

EVEN Toyota and Chevy have hypercars on their way, the GR Super Sport and the Corvette ZORA!!! Toyota's rival for the Valkyrie/Speedtail/Ferrari LMH, Chevy's rival for the Valhalla/765LT/SF90...

BMW, Audi = 🤮🤮🤮

Mercedes LS2 > any BMW or Audi V8

So tell me, man, how does THE MOST (UN)POPULAR "luxury" BRAND not produce a supercar? MODERATE premium brands such as Polestar, Acura, Lexus with the 1, NSX, and LFA. Your stupid i8 made a pathetic 382 hp and topped 174 mph ungoverned — 1990s "supercar" territory sure, but nowhere on par with those other cars.

Even Ford and Dodge had supercars (GT and Viper) during that WHOLE time BMW had a GRAND TOURER at best. Their Z8 was the sportiest, but still not a true sports car, more like an SL500 competitor.

Tesla is just like Ford and Dodge in that it's not a luxury brand, and it's STILL coming up with a hypercar — the Roadster. You pissed that the widely rumored "iM2" won't BECOME a thing AND NEVER WILL? 😜

Quote>"Steve Dinan worked on everything from Lamborghini to Porsche to you name it."

But

Quote>"Correction, I meant Ferrari and Porsche."

And

Quote>"so let me educate you."

Educate yourself you bloody moron!😂

REPEAT>

Quote>"He forgets Dinan actually IS a US engineering/tuning firm? How anyone can be so ****ing clueless to basics, is quite beyond me? Then he trash talks the United States of America? FK him off, quite obviously a troll. No oxygen, no fire!🤦"

COMPLETELY missed the point?😂

Anyway, nice act Lambullshitni (knock off!)🤦

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Oh NOW we're bringing up Nadia?

Silly bastard is a chicken lover AND obsessed with them? 2 alt accounts from memory, one chicken fascination! LMFAO!😂

That's cringe.

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Pretty sure they easily can if they take the seats out and put some trofeo Rs on the cars
F80 M4 GTS did 7:28
1 generation ago

On the 'Ring, the Project 8 had a far racier set-up (both inside and out) than the M5 CS, stickier tires and was piloted by a factory driver on the day.

At the ring, the Jaguar is faster only because it's a factory laptime versus a magazine attempt.
At all other circuits, the BMW is faster.

https://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/sth2uzhk98ft

Factory vs mag time 😴 really not that impressive considering you need to pay 200k for one when it can't even beat an M5 Competition in a straight line

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It's literally a track special, the M4 GTS of the previous gen cost pretty much the same

Oh my God, the M550i is an in-betweener with the "middle-ground" S6 USA and the "top-dog" RS6 Avant. In other words, it surprisingly beats the bare-bones E63 in the long run.

Yeah, it's crazy what BMW did with their so tame top tier non-M. I remember when the E39 540i only had like 286 PS.

One thing I didn't ask though, are these your calculations or have you gathered all this information from actual tests? Oo

Especially for the older cars (Mercs in particular) I had to improvise and put them in perspective with models from their time. I can't exactly tell if the W210 E60 AMG is exactly on par with the later M5, so adding value with weight and chassis/drag disadvantage I could analyse a few numbers that sound right in my head.
The more I do it and compare it to speculations of one specific website, the better I get at figuring out possible stats. No 100% guarantee for them being accurate, but it's the closest thing an amateur can do.

I also have the D segment with cars with the same engine to compare it. Obviously I can't make an E55 AMG faster than a C55 :D

It doesn't matter it's accurate enough. I heard that the BMW M5/M6 were tested to just over 50 seconds to 300km/h from a standing start. So it's good!

However the Aston Martin DBS 6.0 V12 is over SIXTY seconds and the DB9 nearly SEVENTY FIVE seconds to the same speeds.

That's a national disgrace! Ahahaha! ;)

But again very well done! I'll be referring to them alot, easier to use than the compare button! ;)

At this point, I started referring to cars that take over 60 seconds to 300 or 250 as >62, haha. Too lazy to calculate that shit.
I'm glad you like and agree with it, I really do. Especially when considering I have none of the formulas for drag coefficient or whatever it's called.

Also in a way, someone had to do it. Those numbers anonymous put up are just infuriatingly wrong. 2001 RS6 in 15 seconds to 200? Literally impossible. LMAO

Usually that guy inputed manufacturer claimed data, from experience LOL!

Well for frontal area's of a production car it's Width X Height X 86% = square foot or or square metres depending on what units you use.

The co efficiency of drag is generally manufacturer published, where it is not then you can benchmark using the above as a guide for 0.XX ratio.

Like we did months ago for the Mclaren Speedtail. It's pretty easy.

And then calculators are available to work out too speed where you plug it all in? ;)

I'm thinking about making a new project. Most likely it's gonna be the big three American muscle cars: Mustang, Camaro and Challenger. Afterwards maybe hatchbacks? I'll find out

How about Corvettes?
I have a good collection of tests on various vette versions from C1 generation to C5, as well as estimations for models that have not been tested.
It would be interesting to compare the results.

It'd make my life easier because I don't really know much about them. The recent GT500, ZL1 "Bumblebee" plus maybe the ZR1 C4 and C7! LOL!

Saving best for last ;) I have a few niche projects before I'm getting into them.
If you can provide me with stats I'll be more than happy to add them.

There's quite a bit to cover. I'll see what I can do :)

Just found out that doing that list, even with only the V8 models, would be an absolute CHORE. Haha. I'm gonna try something else for today and tomorrow, cause I'd 1. have to burn myself out for that list and 2. I don't wanna have myself copy complete pages of data from websites just because I can't exactly calculate those times.

I better stay on my continent.

Rome was built in a day? You can't burn yourself out just for statistics!

But if your into it, your into it! We ain't going nowhere! Ahahaha!

That sure sounds fair, however I'm absolutely clueless on American cars before the 70s. Haha. Not gonna post statistics that turn out to be horribly wrong or forget a dozen cars on my way.

Wow, wait WHAT?!?! The E53 and M550i Mk2 look very close to each other despite being 100hp apart (actually 94hp apart)... 2.2s apart from 0-200, only 3.3s apart from 200-250 (I know that seems like a lot, but that's actually very impressive considering the hp gap)

The M550i xDrive is the Ferrari F430 to the E53 AMG's Lamborghini Gallardo Series 1

That hybrid power is probably part of it. Then again I made these stats last year so some of them could be incorrect.

I believe them...

I feel honored 😆

that's the showdown between dr.cosimo vs hostboy on a highway in the middle of mexico.

anything with a cosimo badge will win :)

m5 walks away from almost all sedans and the hellcat is no big deal, bring it to the track and the hellcat will be back to the pits in no time :)

Contrary to popular belief, I am not an American muscle fanboy. I am more of a European grand tourer, Japanese sports car type of guy.

cut the bs act and show us your posters of every muscle car in your room and toilet.

your latest addition must be musk’s tesla plaid with him posing in his ex lingerie from wallmart.

Yeah 700bhp is what BMW call 625bhp. We're only sandbagging by 75bhp but hey everyone knows that, or do they? lol

700, 705, 710, 725 etc... won't make any difference, because it stomped the dodgy hellcat so bad with 797hp lol

I quite like the Hellcat engine sound and its ability to smoke 'em up but it's a massive porker at almost 2100kg and only 100kg lighter than the Plaid so of course it doesn't stand a chance against the Bavarian bugger let alone any other supercar...

i don't have nothing against the hellcat, but some believe 797hp should beat everything and i mean everything, hostboy's dream car lol

If the Hellcat was 400kg lighter it would be in with a chance, in a roll race at least, because traction from a dig would still be a problem unless they were able to sort out the launch control...

I would not be surprised if the BMW had 750hp... Yes it's lighter by a bit, but it clearly was pulling away and at no point did the Hellcat start turning things around.

750 is too much
I think 700 would do the job

Agreed, the so called "average horsepower" figures we get from BMW and AMG are usually about 8-10% lower than actual peak power...

Sorry, meant to upvote

i've been tellin' ya for a while now, oregon weed is no good, stick to cali weeds.

it's approved by nonna pelosi and her demo-rats party.

I wonder how long we will wait for the inclusion of Throttle House laptimes in the site database?

What racetrack do they test on?

I've added the track:

https://fastestlaps.com/tracks/dunnville-autodrome

Thanks for adding)

It's not ironic. It's just Common Sense, as defined by Albert Einstein. wink wink

BMW has always had that reputation of underrating cars, especially since the E60 M5 came out. Even that car's 500hp claim was BS. It actually made at least 560hp, if not 600hp. The F10 M5 was guiltier, making about 575hp instead of 550hp, and even capable of almost 690hp with a simple ECU flasher. The F90 M5 is the car we're talking about, but it's even more conservative than other M5s especially in CS form. I'm sure it makes anywhere between 735 and 765 hp, because it's real peak power begins at 7000 rpm, as opposed to the advertised 6000 rpm which really only belongs to the standard M5 and M5 Competition. (It does in fact make 630ish hp at 6000 rpm. BMW isn't exactly lying about that part. They're not as conservative with their 4.4L engines as Mercedes is with their 4.0L engines.)

I've went by the general rule that: for VW/Audi AG products and McLaren, 0% loss; Ferrari naturally aspirated cars 25%; everything else between 5% and 20% (on average, 15%). Ford and GM cars overall the worst at 20%. Chryslers (like the Hellcat) at 10%. BMW and Mercedes products generally at 5%; only their sub-D-segment cars (that aren't the M2 CS or maybe the AMG 45S series cars) and lower are very consistent with their actual power ratings.

The Hellcat Redeye is 797 bhp, but it's making 797 [707] x 0.90 = 717 rwhp and 636 rwtq.

The M5 CS is technically 627 bhp, but 627 [553] x 0.95 = 596 awhp and 526 awtq, and those are actually some reasonable results for an actual 735 bhp rating, especially for an AWD luxury sedan.

However, we all know that a 4100 lb M5 with 735 hp is going to not only have a much better power to weight ratio, but also slap the living crap out of even some slightly modified Hellcat Redeyes, which generally weigh 4400-4600 lb (depending on the model and variation) with 797 hp.

Superchargers also make very toxic power, so in the end the Redeyes/Super Stocks/Demons, much less the standard Hellcats, may actually be slower than the Bimmers with the 600+hp twin turbo eights. Yep, the Hellcat series cars use a 2.4L supercharger, and a Demon (Redeye) uses a 2.7L supercharger.

6.166+2.700 = 8.866, so 6.166/8.866 = 554/797; (554+797)/2 = 675 actual hp by 85% of maximum top speed... which means the Redeye becomes worse even than the larger M760Li...

This makes the standard Hellcat look more like a Scat Pack

Roastboy is a Bad Joke!