58 Formula 1 still slower than Le Mans LMP1 prototypes

Cover for Formula 1 still slower than Le Mans LMP1 prototypes

Even with wider tyres and more traction, Formula 1 cars have not caught up to the blistering acceleration benchmarks set by current generation LMP1 prototypes.

The last Sunday's Sky Sports feed of Formula 1 Austrian GP included unusual data graphic - 0-200 kph acceleration time for Valtteri Bottas Mercedes W08 in 4.6 seconds.

This acceleration time was measured after perfect start with very low reaction delay - so perfect, in fact, that competitors Sebastian Vettel and Daniel Ricciardo assumed Valtteri had jumped the start and pleaded for race direction investigation.

4.6 seconds is just 0.1 slower than LMP1 Porsche 919. LMP1 cars are four wheel drive and are believed to be more powerful than Formula 1 cars. Exact power output for fastest teams in both racing series are unknown, but we can speculate that F1 powertrains are now producing close to 1000 horsepower, while LMP1 prototypes can generate up to 1 megawatt (1300+ metric horsepower) in "full delivery" mode.

3m ago by FastestLaps
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Andrew Evoluzione  5d ago

I always like LMP1 more than F1... WEC rules !

200px-Le_Mans_2011_Audi_Sport_Team_Joest


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Life in the slow lane!  2w ago

At the start of the race they weigh a little bit more. Because of obvious reasons. How much fuel do they carry at the start 220 lbs? Compare that to a qualification lap with 20-40 lbs.


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King rocker  1m ago

Dude, who cares? An F1 at 330kph will decelerate faster than the Lmp BY JUST LIFTING THE THROTTLE. The lap times are made by breaking, now acceleration performance. That's why you see most overtaking happens during breaking. Capish?

 

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Krockr  1m ago

I mean than the LMP pressing the brakes...


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saxy  1m ago

If you don't know anything just shut your mouth. An Audi R18 would normally brake at about 110m before the first chicane on the mulsanne straight while travelling at 330kph. And that's in low downforce trim. An F1 car will decelerate at 1g by lifting off at above 200mph, but even the pedestrian GTE racing cars pull up to 2.5gs in corners and braking.


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phavyarden  1m ago

I don't know m8, even considering that Porsche always post very conservative figures, those numbers are just claims under very specific conditions. Not to mention that the main straight is on uphill


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sroser  2m ago

A Tesla P100D can beat an F1 car 0-100kph, which makes this thread a little silly really.

 

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corkscrew  1m ago

no, a tesla do not beat an f1 car. 0-100 in f1 is about 2s. 0-100 in tesla is 2.5s. But here they are talking about 0-200 in 4.6s. The 0-200 in the tesla is about 10s.


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sroser1  1w ago

wrong, sad!


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saxy  2m ago

Sad. Porsche pulling out of Le Mans. Does that mean Toyota will too?

 

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Lescix  2m ago

Toyota isnt important imo they can leave, whatever they learn from racing they do not apply to their production cars. So they'r just filling up space. I wish BMW & Benz can do something about it. Porsche is merely taking a break they're not out permanently


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cosimo  2m ago @Lescix

"Toyota isnt important imo they can leave, whatever they learn from racing they do not apply to their production cars."

because jdm tight yo tuners will lose business

i don't blame the chinese for this

http://brandchannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/japan-top.jpg

http://brandchannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/japan-cars-overturned.jpg


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Pertol head car loving XKR drive  2m ago

I dont care, I have been to both race series and love them all, whether its lawn mower racing, F1, Indy, Lemans rally, classics, goodwood, so long as they all continue and petrol heads can get their fix then long live motor sport. The technology that is driven from this sport is outstanding.


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sroser  2m ago

F1 cars are faster on acceleration too, just not from 0-100kph. 100-200kph and 100-300kph they're much faster. You only have to start a race once, so 0-100kph is meaningless.

 

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Gomareschi Matteo  2m ago

We are discussing about 0.1s faster from 0-100 (2WD vs 4WD) when a F1 will smoke a LMP1 from 100-200 and more.
Not considering a laptime comparison


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FastestLaps  2m ago

I am not so sure about 200-300. I don't know, maybe in 2017 F1 powertrains are more powerful, but a 2016 F1 car has CONSIDERABLY less power than LMP1 car. And therefore it is slower not just from a dig but also in high speed pulls.

With minimum wing, full battery and full delivery (push to pass) LMP1 car accelerates like nothing else - like Bugatti Veyron SS with weight of Lotus Exige.


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FastestLaps  2m ago @Gomareschi Matteo

It's not just a matter of 4WD vs 2WD. The problem (problem for F1 car) is that LMP1 powertrains are far more powerful - we are talking anywhere between 25 - 50% more power.

LMP1 regulations are just about the only place in high level motorsport where outlandish power outputs are still possible. We are talking Porsche 917 Can Am type of power. It's like a glitch - a loophole in otherwise boring, suffocating sea of regulations and restrictions in motorsport.


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DrDuke  2m ago @FastestLaps

Toyota says they have 1000ps combined.
LMP1 Weight (without driver and fuel): 878 kg
F1 Weight (with driver, without fuel): 728 kg

Power to weight winner is the F1 car.
If the F1 car could use kers from the start it would be faster to every speed you like than the LMP1 car.
https://www.toyota-motorsport.com/en/latest-information-archive-en/494-ts050-hybrid-new-car-new-challenge-for-toyota-gazoo-racing

Porsche has even less bhp
http://www.porsche.com/international/motorsportandevents/motorsport/worksracing/racingcars/919-hybrid/featuresandspecs/
and they claim 4.8 seconds for 0-200km/h

Mercedes is near 1000bhp from the engine alone
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/02/23/mercedes-edging-towards-1000bhp-from-engine-despite-reliability-fixes/

I dont know from where you got your phantasie numbers


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saxy  2m ago @DrDuke

LMP1 cars are producing 200-300hp more than stated. The 2014 Toyota cars were claimed to be 1000hp already yet in 2015, the Porsches and Audis absolutely destroyed them.

Again, if it weren't that LMP1 cars weren't restricted to using some 30% less fuel, they wouldn't be slower despite more weight and harder rubber


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FastestLaps  2m ago @DrDuke

F1 cars are not producing 1000 horsepower from those 1.6 turbo engines alone. Stop daydreaming.



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DrDuke  2m ago @cosimo

you mean the F1 engines from the first turbo era are also a daydream? They had 1.5l and 1200-1500bhp - 35 years ago.
By the way the electric power is restricted in lemans to 300kw.

Maybe you should start reading the engineering articles than the marketing ones. Dont make yourself to a joke bud


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Gomareschi Matteo  2m ago @FastestLaps

Surely 930/950 in standard mode.
Probably 950/975 in qualify mode perhaps more with the Mercedes magic button


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DrDuke  2m ago @Gomareschi Matteo

This claim was made in february:

Mercedes engine boss Andy Cowell says the headline-grabbing power output of 1000bhp is getting closer and closer in Formula One, but stressed that bhp figures are not the only target for power unit development.

http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/18749753/mercedes-1000bhp-f1-power-unit-getting-closer-not-only-target


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saxy  2m ago @DrDuke

Dr. Duke. The 1500hp engines of the past only lasted 2 laps. Engines now need to last 5 weekends of practices and races.

Current engines sip at 100kg/hr fuel rate. Past history engines had unlimited fuel.

Perhaps you should use your brain before throwing tough words at others.

Oh and WEC cars are restricted to 300kw power at a specific class of circuit. That one happens to be only at Lemans. And the cars were restricted until last year. And that fuel rates were further restricted so that they wouldn't challenge F1 cars.


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mesq  2m ago

Can someone show me a video where an Lmp1 car accelerates faster than this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ap3XGB6PAI


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Inline 6 rules  2m ago @DrDuke

1500 HP engines were for qualifications, they were made for only 3-4 laps.
At races the most powerful engines were 1200-1280 HP and many of them couldn't last for that one race.
Today F1 engines have to endure 5 weekends(!!!), and has limited fuel source at race. That's a GARGANTOUS difference.
If 80's engines were created for 5 weekends and limited fuel supply they would have been FAR weeker, probably around 600-650 HP at best.


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DrDuke  2m ago @Inline 6 rules

Quali engines had to last for about 15-30mins.

Since the 80ies the engineers have computers to aid in development. This helped a lot to understand how to build an engine that can manage higher loads.

F1 engine development made just huge leaps in the last 3-4 years.

in 1876 thermal efficiency was around 17%
in 2005 27.5% 300bhp/liter NA
in 2013 29% 302bhp/liter NA
in 2015 >45% 525bhp/liter Turbo
in 2017 >50%

Development is not a linear thing.

The F1 reglement says: you have 100kg fuel for the race and 4 MJ Kers per lap - deal with it.

LMP1 reglement says: The amount of releasable energy per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by factor 1.55. The amount of fuel allocation per lap will be limited in the proportion of length of circuit relative to the length of Le Mans circuit multiplied by factor 1.11.

Fuel energy per lap: 124.9 MJ Le Mans / 71.3 MJ Spa / 60 MJ Silverstone
Maximum energy recovered per lap: 8 MJ Le Mans / 6.37 MJ Spa / 5.36 MJ Silverstone

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/f1_speed.html
The 2008 F1 cars have a power-to-weight ratio of around 1,250 hp (932 kW)/tone (0.9 kW/kg).
Theoretically this would allow the car to reach 100 km/h (62 mph) in less than 1 second. However the massive power cannot be converted to motion at low speeds due to traction loss, and the usual figure is 2 seconds to reach 100 km/h.
After about 130 km/h traction loss is minimal due to the combined effect of the car moving faster and the downforce, hence the car continues accelerating at a very high rate.

The figures are (for the 2007 Renault R27):

0 to 100 km/h (62 mph): 2.0 seconds

0 to 200 km/h (124 mph): 3.9 seconds

0 to 300 km/h (186 mph): 8.6 seconds

Figures may alter slightly depending on the aerodynamic setup.

The acceleration figure is usually 2.46 g (24.1 m /s) up to 200 km/h.


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YeahBuddy  2m ago @cosimo

cosimo the 14yo guido f-A-g when's your dad gonna lend you his BMW so you could probably have the slightest clue about cars rather than all these turds coming out your mouth in here.


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MissileKari  2m ago @mesq

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DRLElJM3Bk8


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Zulmiro  2m ago

What a fallacious title... the 0-200kph is such a meaningless characteristic on a comparison between two race cars, especially one with the chosen title...
The truth is the f1 car was and still is much faster (on the track wich is where it matters) , and to my surprise it seems that even on this acceleration (0-200) it has an equivalent time(if not faster) to a more powerfull awd race car...

 

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FastestLaps  2m ago

Of course F1 cars are faster than LMP1 cars. That is a purposefully misleading title - a title that should have had an asterisk to it, because it's about acceleration and not overall speed.

But my purpose was to trigger F1 fans who are oblivious to other race series and the fact that other race cars are faster than F1 cars in certain criteria, such as acceleration from standstill. In this domain the title "LMP1 cars still faster than F1 cars" is valid.


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Fastedee  2m ago @FastestLaps

Rally cars have crazy low speed acceleration


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Not really comparable IMO  2m ago @FastestLaps

I think this .1 seconds is due to one car being AWD while the other isn't.

.1 seconds is more than attributable to the AWD.

An LMP1 car around Silverstone is ~10 seconds slower than an F1 car:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/2017/british-grand-prix/results/qualifying

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/silverstone-wec-toyota-takes-dominant-1-2-in-qualifying-894136/

The cars aren't really setup to be drag raced. If you compare the cars out of a corner accelerating onto the straight, the Formula 1 car would be MUCH quicker. It is nearly 150 kilograms lighter and has TONS more power than the LMP1 919.

Porsche themselves claim a 0-200 KPH time of 4.8 seconds on their page. Yes, they always are a bit lower than real world, but it is pretty clear that the F1 car will do everything better than a Le Mans Prototype.

Just my .02



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Annoyinimus  3m ago

Start is uphill

 

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FastestLaps  3m ago

It kicks up to slight uphill towards the end of the straight, so I don't think that affected the 0-200 time much.


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rhs1992  3m ago

And with activated DRS F1 car, could do 0-200 in less than 4.5s

 

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FastestLaps  3m ago

I don't think DRS would matter too much for 0-200, but it would matter a lot for 0-300. Either way, with low fuel, perfectly "cooked" tyres and DRS off I believe these F1 cars have what it takes to beat 4.5. But we won't know until we know :D

F1 should provide more acceleration infographics. Would enrich the F1 dataset on Fastestlaps :D


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rhs1992  3m ago

Vettel did in 4.7s

 

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FastestLaps  3m ago

Was it shown on screen or is that just your estimation? As soon as something is shown on screen, it's official data by FIA, as far as I am concerned, and I can add it to Fastestlaps as such.


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QA51M  3m ago @FastestLaps

They did show vettels time to show his reaction was 0.347 second or something and his 0-200 was 4.7. It was shown about 5 minutes after they showed bottas accell data


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saxy  3m ago

4.6s to 200kph in a car of about 100kg of fuel. That is impressive indeed.

And yes that was a jumpstart for sure


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Murmur  3m ago

Is there a similar, real measured time for a LMP1 car, instead of the useless and purely theoretical ones?

 

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FastestLaps  3m ago

It is very dumb to reject simulation results as "useless and theoretical". Really shows how little you understand about advanced vehicle physics simulation. Difference between good sim and real life is practically nothing, provided you can get a really good and representative real world sample, which this Bottas start really was.

And yes, there is "real time" published by Porsche themselves and it's 4.5 seconds - incidentally, exactly the same as Assetto Corsa simulation.


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Murmur  3m ago @FastestLaps

Naah, they're useless, as useless as a theoretical calculated ring time. :-D Real time or it didn't happen.


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FastestLaps  3m ago @Murmur

That's just ignorance. Simulated and estimated acceleration times are far more reliable than simulated and estimated (God forbid) lap times.

And, btw, it did happen, Porsche have that time on their website for 919 ;)


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Derb  3m ago

it was a jumpstart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tken_aR8bD8
but this stupid formela 1 stewards do what they want
"it was in the tolerance" what stupid shit
in FOUR fps you can see the tyres and the car moving while the light are still red
four fps! this is not even close to a correct start

 

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FastestLaps  3m ago

I don't think it was a jump start at all.


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Derb  3m ago @FastestLaps

tell me the reason why do you it is not a jumpstart?
he startet bevor the red lights were off
and the stewards said it was in the tolerance
is there anywere written how big this tolerance is?
and from where is this 0,2s reaktion time coming? this is so stupid
there can't be any reaction time because he startet bevore the red lights were off


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Fastedee  3m ago @FastestLaps

Human reaction is .185 so Bottas was just very quick.


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Derb  3m ago @Fastedee

are you joking?
he was not quick he was to early
it was a jumpstart there is no question
the only thing which has to be discussed is what this tolerance is


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Fastedee  3m ago @Derb

No it just looks that way but he started a hundredth of a second after he was allowed. Put the start on frame by frame. Finns are honest drivers.


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Derb  3m ago @Fastedee

you can see him rolling and the red lights at the same time
that is a jumpstart
nothing any more to discuss about that


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FastestLaps  3m ago @Derb

As far as I can tell (from watching Sky feed) he didn't jump the start and he did launch after a very minimal delay, which could be regarded as his reaction time. I understand that there is a rule against "anticipated starts" where driver just randomly goes when he think the lights will go off rather than as a reaction of seeing the lights go off. But I think that rule is pointless - If someone can anticipate start signal, more power to him and that's just good luck anyway, because doing so you have much greater chances of really jumping the start and receiving penalty.

But as long as driver moves AFTER the start signal, I don't think there should be any investigation or any penalty at all, no matter what the delay between the signal and the clutch drop.

Either way, Bottas "reaction time" was within what's considered "humanly possible" so there was no sanctions on him anyway.


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FastestLaps  3m ago @Derb

As far as measuring acceleration times, super quick starts with very little or no reaction time are even encouragable, after all, car acceleration figures are not about driver's reaction time.


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Fastedee  3m ago @FastestLaps

Yeah.


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Fastedee  3m ago @Derb

It's just that we mere mortals can't see things like F1 drivers do.

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