49 Is the Honda Civic Type-R Nürburgring Nordschleife front wheel drive record legit?

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I really don't know what to do with this time. In 2014 Honda already made a questionable claim at the FWD Nürburgring glory when they ran pre-production version of the FK2 and recorded 7 minute and 50 second lap.

This latest announcement of 7:43.8 for the facelifted FK2 looks like more of the same type of marketing deception.

By their own admission, this is a lap time recorded by a car in "final phase of testing regime", which basically means "free-for-all" in undisclosed mods, such as weight reduction, power boost or "extra special" rubber.

Is the subtle footnote of "pre-production version in final stages of testing" going to be a trend for other manufacturer's records in future?

In that case we will have a really difficult time trusting any information that comes from manufacturers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFPJ8hdml4E

8m ago by FastestLaps
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Fastedee  7m ago

It's too bad Honda aren't allowed this sleight of hand in F1 or maybe one of the greatest in drivers in history wouldn't have a 12th place as his only finish out of five races.



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BR2+  8m ago

This new reply system is becoming very confusing.

 

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FastestLaps  8m ago

Do you think it would be better to show replies newest-last instead of newest-first? Other than that it's the same as Facebook Youtube or anywhere.


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BR2+  8m ago @FastestLaps

IMO, The system where the newest comment was first was always worked the best rather then the news that reply shown under the users name, A simple @ always worked good


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FastestLaps  8m ago @BR2+

If FB and Google do comments with reply button and threaded 1 level deep, I think they know what they are doing and have done their research.

The thing I like about this new system is that replying is so much easier and there is hardly ever any need to use the quote button which nobody used anyway. And the @name gets added automatically.

I just think that order of replies should be swapped around.


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FastestLaps  8m ago @BR2+

As far as finding newest comments - use the Timeline sidebar. It should automatically scroll to the comment you clicked on and you should be able to find it.


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BR2+  7m ago @FastestLaps

Ive no idea bout FB or Google since i dont use either, But the older way of just putting the newer comments shown up first was just easier and were all most likely more used to it, Like i dont think its hard to put a @ next to somebodys name lol But hey its ur site you do what you want.


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BR2+  8m ago

The fact isheet, They cheated, There's really no debating about it, We have all said a cage is fine, It's for safety, But stripping car essentials is not, And again, 166mph on the straight yet a 400bhp Carrera S is more powerful, Lighter, More aerodynamic and with a dct and faster achieved the same? No way in hell.

However, Another question remains, Tyrespecially, I don't no the type or compound, But I've only heRd people throw out MPSC2s on this site, I've no idea, but if that really is the case then 5s should be more like 10s, But then again the last one tested wasn't stock either, So the estimated timing would be off.

Either way, The simple fact is, That completely removing the seats and center console, is not legit, No matter of the cage.

 

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DrDuke  8m ago

At high speed its all about power and aerodynamics. Here you have some values for different cars http://rc.opelgt.org/indexcw.php. And here is a calculator at the end of the page http://www.kfz-tech.de/Biblio/Formelsammlung/Luftwiderstand.htm. Maybe you have to put it into google translator ;).
And if you dlike to learn more about aerodynamics you can listen to him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quDLzxmJl5I&spfreload=10


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Fastedee  7m ago

Too right!


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sroser  8m ago

Wow, another 'ring time and another claim of fake. How unexpected.


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James  8m ago

Just show me a real production car driven by independent driver below 8min and Honda (and driver ) will get all my respect!

 

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FastestLaps  8m ago

Dude, why don't you just happily believe anything Honda say and why don't you just ignore the fact that its a preproduction car and accept the record as production record anyway?

That way everyone will win and everyone will be happy - Honda will sell more Type Rs, you will be happy because there is new fastest FWD car, and we will all join a happy, joyful jerkfest of Type R appreciation.

Critical thinking is for losers. In 2017 it's all about positive news, positive marketing and "likes" in social media, every review is meant to be positive or extra positive and everyone is meant to be shilling for whoever pays some pocket money sponsorship.


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James  8m ago @FastestLaps

Ist's gonna be Amazing! I tell you!! Absolutely superb performance believe me!!

Irony off...


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DrDuke  8m ago @FastestLaps

Well maybe you should first offer some real facts. Watching a video and then calling it fake is pretty weak. Okay they removed some parts from the interieur and added a cage. What else do you have to offer? Do you know the weight difference to the stock car? Do you know the weight of the driver? How much petrol and other fluids he was carring?

Just alone the weather conditions can have a bigger influence than these things you see in the video. Otherwise the AMG GT-R time wouldn't be possible. If the merc were driven by 30 degree air temperature instead of 6-7°C it would have a noticeable chunk less bhp and they couldn't use such an agressive car setup. In the supertest of the AMG they called it perfect conditions for this record run. By the way the second run with the golf clubsport s was done under similar cold conditions.
Alone the temperature difference from the hot to a cold day on the ring can make a difference around 10 seconds (rule-of-thumb estimate). And there are even more unpredictable influences like how much rubber is already on the track. if you get a cold day after a 24h race there will be so much rubber on the track that you gain another couple of seconds.

The only thing I understand form your comments is that you don't understand what you are talking about. Same goes for this http://www.bridgetogantry.com/ idiot.


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FastestLaps  8m ago @DrDuke

Which part of "pre-production test car" don't you understand?


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DrDuke  8m ago @FastestLaps

pre-production test car means its a car not built on the normal production lane. Its a car to for testing before you build a production lane. Because you don't want to change your production lane once finished if you notice that the car has flaws. It's just a more handmade car than these you will buy once.


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FastestLaps  8m ago @DrDuke

It is still a development vehicle. They are still trying out things and if they, for example, used a different, more agressive (and emissions non-compliant) engine map, we would never know. So many things can hide under this "pre-production" banner.

I am not saying that all laptimes in FL are strictly production cars and verified independently to have absolutely zero deviation from showroom stock. But I don't think you will find many (hopfully not any) laptimes recorded with a preproduction test car, at least not when manufacturer themselves openly admit that.


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saxy  8m ago @FastestLaps

FL you're being too nice. Honda blantantly cheated, not only by removing essential car items from the car, but the HP was grossly turned up. Both for this run, and the last.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ey_Tido0g

Remember how the civic hit speeds 20kph faster than the Clubsport S GTI? yet the 2 production cars side by side the Clubsport convincingly pulls away from it at higher speeds.


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DrDuke  8m ago @FastestLaps

See I'm mechanical engineer - I can roughly estimate what all needs to be done from prototyping to mass production. These cars were assembled maybe a half/1 year ago for their standart testing process. So everything is now done. Nobody would risk a car if he needs it for further testing. Besides the fact that they already released the differences to the last gen Type R. They switched from normal summer tries to semis alone this fact makes it plausible.
A buddy of mine owns a last gen Type R with a tuned ecu to 350bhp. On hot days when he pushs the car hard it thorttles itself a bit. So these claimed 320bhp sounds like the maximum you can get out of this engine configuration under any conditions. I actually think non of the manufacturers cheats on the engine side. Maybe they change the chassis geometry a bit to get the tires working over a whole lap. And the biggest gain at all are the tires itself. I'm looking at lambo and merc in this case. If you compare the milage of semi slicks compared to real racing tires then it's obvious that there is the biggest gain for "free". As long as you offer these tires to your customer its even "legal".
All these circuit times are neat but I would prefer a format of around 20 laps at once for smaller circuits. This would be more informative how good a car is.

Last thing to add: not all manufacturers can be as cool as alfa ;) - even when the tires are done after 2/3 of the lap.


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DrDuke  8m ago @saxy

To the comparison video - if you really dlike to know whats going on you have to calculate what's happening at the contact patch. For this kind of acceleration test you need to know how many revs the engine is pulling and how the power is delivered. Then you have the transmission/gearing up to the wheels and tires. If you watched the dodge deamon video with the tires deformation at the start then you know what I mean :). Further you have the frontal area and the drag coefficient. If your car produces a bit of downforce then it will loose in straigth acceleration. The Golf looks a bit more streamlined and I dont know about the gearing.


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saxy  8m ago @DrDuke

Yet the Civic registered 20+kph on the back straight of Nurburgring. Proof of the BS power boost Honda put in.


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DrDuke  8m ago @saxy

Do you know in which direction the wind was blowing and how strong? Maybe not 20kph unless its storming but quiet a difference on such a long straight.

You are reading from the speedometer. Law is that the speedometer never shows a lower speed as you are driving with all the approved rim/tires combinations. I don't know whats approved for the type r but you can certainly put bigger rims on it. And I dont know how well it's calibrated. Because there is no law restriction for showing too much. Most of the speedometer are more or less accurate to 140. Everything above is nice to have but nobody cares because there is no country with a speedlimit of 200 or something like that. The only way to find it out is you put a navigation software on your handy and measure it yourself. But your measurement will also not be totally accurate because all measurements have measuring errors.

The number is high yet nobody of us can tell what's the reason for it.


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saxy  8m ago @DrDuke

Both were GPS speeds. /facepalm


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DrDuke  8m ago @saxy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9G7N0_M9Rc&spfreload=10

where's the gps speed dood?


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saxy  7m ago @DrDuke

Nice video you posted...


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anonymous12312  7m ago @saxy

thats just the vtec kicking in yo


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James  8m ago

In the "supertest " the old Civic R production car die 8.15min by c. Gebhard. Top speed Döttinger Höhe was 234kmh. Peproduction record car with 7.50min had 270kmh Döttinger Höhe...
Engine Settings. Car Settings Camber etc.. we all dont know.

This actual record is about the same. Honda deleted my fact based Comment on their YouTube Channel. That says all to me!!

 

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DrDuke  8m ago

Yeah dude thats true - but in the same supertest they measured the power of the car - which was 276bhp instead of 310. So the engine was certainly in a bad condition. The joke here is more that they publisehd a test with a broken car.
Call some tuners and ask them what they measured before tuning the ecu. All of them will tell you that these cars have their claimed 310bhp.


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James  8m ago @DrDuke

I agree but an A45 AMG 381bhp achieved "only" 249km/h at Döttinger Höhe. You can now argue that the speedo of the Civic was may not correct but you just don't know (in fact about all relevant specs) and that's the whole problem of the preproduction laptimes.
Honda should only publish laptimes with production cars.


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DrDuke  8m ago @James

If you can give me the drag coefficient for the type r I could calculate the force at 250km/h.

For the merc you can find the information on their page - 0.35 drag coefficient (the not amg versions are around 0.27/0.28).
1.78m x 1.433 -> all together warps up to 2221,56N at 250km/h

at the moment it looks like the amg has too many openings at the front which makes him slower accelerating at higher speed.


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FastestLaps  8m ago

Long power outage today and site was offline for about 6 hours. Meanwhile heated debate here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrrR56zHh4o. Honda fanboys and apologists in full force :D

 

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NIN  8m ago

"I'm fine with the roll-cage, I'm not fine with removing seats..." - FL

I feel the same way. If Honda had a "pay more to remove things.." option (like Porsche) and had an optional "seat delete/radio delete" option, this time would be fine assuming that the tires used will be optional, also.

If Honda sells a car with no rear seats, no radio/nav, same tires used, I'd call the time legit even though Honda won't sell the car with the cage. Nissan's GT-R Attack options were expensive but if someone wanted to pay enough, they could have a car 99.9% the same as the one that set the time. With this Honda, there is no way to buy the car that set the time.


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Freeda Bees  8m ago

I think, given the speeds and pace involved, that lap times like this shouldn't be accepted if they were set without a roll cage. It is irresponsible to think that it should be acceptable, and expected, that someone be able to buy a car from a dealer, drive it to Nordschleife and try and match this time without first fitting a roll cage.

 

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FastestLaps  8m ago

I think roll cage should be mandatory only if you're driving Koenigsegg :)


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BR2+  8m ago

I dunno what kind of roll cage it has, Nor do I no the material it is made with, Nor do I no if it's just inside or actually straight bolted to the chassis, As for tyres, That also, I've herd a few things but nothing solid, But I don't see why they would put such a tyre as the MPSC2s on this car as the actual production model.

But the fact remains, No seats except driver, And stripped Center console, That alone should be enough to have it removed, Unless that stuff is actually on the production car or as n option, Which I highly doubt t.

Also, Does anybody else find it weird that a 320bhp manual car hit 166mph on the longest straight? That's roughly 5mph off what a Z28 hit and 1mph off what a 400bhp Carrera S with PDK hit...

 

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FastestLaps  8m ago

The guy who commented doesnt know what material and how heavy that rollcage is unless he works for Honda UK and that would explain his twisted logic.

The weight of the cage is irrelevant. If all manufacturer had to do was match the production car weight, they could have just ran WTCC Civic wifh some extra ballast :D

What happened to logic and common sense in 2017?


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saxy  8m ago

The 505 hp corvette also managed only 5mph more. But hey this... the Golf clubsport hit only 246kph on very bottom of the hill. Up the hill it was only traveling at 240kph, while the civic 260kph. And they are supposed to both have about 310hp...


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BR2+  8m ago @FastestLaps

I dunno to much bout the materials about roll cages, But I'm pretty good with metallurgy, And not all metals have the same weight and durability, So the same cage model being of a different metal could be an where from a few grams heavier to 4x as much depending on the materials and forging process, So regarding roll cage weight can be a serious topic, But again it's all for safety so no problems, The real issue is the removal of other parts..And said questionable other fitings.


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serk  8m ago

And she has an aerodynamic of a refrigerator. It's one big fat lie.


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Serk  8m ago

And you know what's on the center console? The digital clock. Here's a little trick from the film industry: in most cameras now, you can set the fps (frames per second) in Europe we record 25, film is 24, and US is 30. This was done in Europe, so I presume the footage was recorded at 25fps. But if you set up the camera at 24fps or even 23fps and play it at 25fps you end up with a shorter clip, by exactly 0,96%, in case of 24fps in 8minutes clup it's 20 seconds. It's a very little change of speed and in a video like that you will never be able to see the difference. There's no other clock in the frame because it was removed, even if it was there, they can easily retouch it and put whatever they want there. As Einstein said "time is relative".


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FastestLaps  8m ago

One fool on my video comments that "rollcage is heavier than back seat and AC" and therefore it is OK for Honda to call that production time lol


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DrDuke  8m ago

last gen type r had conti 6 tires this one has cup2 - record sounds legit


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BR2+  8m ago

Considering it did it with no Center console, And removed passenger seats, And supposed questionable stock tyres, It should be deleted, A roll cage is fine, There on a dangerous track pushing the car it's understandable, But taking out all what was listed I don't see those equaling the roll cage weight, Depending on the type of cage and material it was made of, Either way they cheated plain n simple So should be deleted.



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Art0  8m ago

In addition to that Honda Poland confirmed car was using Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2.


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NIN  8m ago

"The extra weight of the cage was compensated for by the temporary removal of the infotainment system and rear seats." - press release.

Other cars are run with the weight of the cage PLUS their standard weight. Personally, I wouldn't accept the time but it isn't up to me.

I don't like the idea of "removing weight" by removing things that are on every production car. If "no radio/no rear seats" was optional, I'd have no problem with the time.

Dodge went pretty far to get their 1/4 mile time for the Demon so the Civic time will probably be accepted, too. I don't like the trend of manufacturers going "beyond stock" to get impressive stock times. The Demon can be had without optional seats but some of the other things done to the Demon to get the impressive 1/4 mile time were too much.


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hyperspeedd  8m ago

Roll cage installed, no navigation system, no A/C, no rear seats. This is not a production car at all.

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